Auto safety Laurona O/U

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

From memory (now fading!) it was signed as Grant

Could well be.  I think various people made a few on that design.  I know Powells used it in the 1920s and 30s.

[London Best]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

Could well be.  I think various people made a few on that design.  I know Powells used it in the 1920s and 30s.

A friend has fairly recently bought a full left hand Powell sidelock from the 1900’s. I am shooting with him at the end of the month. I will try and check over his action (ooh-er Missus!).

[JohnfromUK]

I don't think the self opener (strictly I think assisted opener) was available that early.  The sidelocks were usually conventional H&H type with Southgate ejectors as far as I know.  The early ones weren't 'stocked to the fences' - later ones were.  A few are a Powell 'lifter' top lever opening.

[London Best]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

A few are a Powell 'lifter' top lever opening.

I loaded with two different pairs of those for two different gentlemen in one season. 
Very odd action. 
But actually very quick and convenient to use in a hurry. 
I quite liked them.

[Scully]

Anyone care to explain the apparent obsession of closing a gun with the barrels down, as in wood to metal, and how this attributes anything to gun safety either on a clay shoot or in the field? 

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

closing a gun with the barrels down

So that the barrels continue to point to the ground.  If you raise the barrels, it is possible for the muzzles to point forwards - and in the example I referenced above re an AyA No 2 the barrels are horizontal and above pointing forwards as the gun snaps closed.

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

So that the barrels continue to point to the ground.  If you raise the barrels, it is possible for the muzzles to point forwards - and in the example I referenced above re an AyA No 2 the barrels are horizontal and above pointing forwards as the gun snaps closed.

So what purpose does this serve? It doesn’t happen in a grouse butt. 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Scully said:

So what purpose does this serve? It doesn’t happen in a grouse butt. 

Well - I for one like the muzzles to point in a safe direction when closing the gun (as well as at all other times I'm not actually addressing a target). Safe is typically down (ground) or up (sky).  With a opening breech type gun, sky is impractical (the cartridges drop out), so ground it is.  My own (very limited) experience of a grouse butt was that you loaded muzzles down, then awaited action muzzles up.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Well - I for one like the muzzles to point in a safe direction when closing the gun (as well as at all other times I'm not actually addressing a target). Safe is typically down (ground) or up (sky).  With an opening breech type gun, sky is impractical (the cartridges drop out), so ground it is.  My own (very limited) experience of a grouse butt was that you loaded muzzles down, then awaited action muzzles up.

Even after closing a gun muzzles down the gun is swept up to point at the sky, so I’m not sure what is gained. 
In a grouse butt it isn’t really practical to close a gun muzzles down because to do so you have to step back from the parapet to do so which means you then have a loaded gun INSIDE the butt. What most folk do in my experience is tip the SXS or OU on its side which means the muzzles stay outside the butt, it also means the cartridges don’t drop out. 
If the beaters are so close they are at risk of being seriously injured, ( on any shoot ) then it’s past the time the horn was blown. 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Scully said:

Even after closing a gun muzzles down the gun is swept up to point at the sky, so I’m not sure what is gained.

The risk of the gun accidentally going off is greatest at the actual closure.  There is another thread on these pages about just that happening.

If you load muzzles down, yes - it is of course necessary to raise them to shoot but;

• On a clays stand it should be safe anyway
• When shooting game and the beating line is close I stand muzzles up.  When reloading, I take care when re-raising the muzzles not to raise them through the line - it does need some 'planning' and it's fair to say my shooting is 'low rate' so a few cartridges per drive.

To me, closing the gun with the barrels pointed at the ground and not snapping them up is a 'no brainer'.  Raising the butt rather than the barrels helps in achieving that.  I have heard of more than one instance of guns going off 'at closure'.  Not had it happen myself.

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

If the beaters are so close they are at risk of being seriously injured, ( on any shoot ) then it’s past the time the horn was blown. 

Agreed.

On the rare and long ago occasions I have shot driven grouse (Wales), many of the 'butts' were either quite spacious enough (I was always alone, never a loader), or more commonly were the 'wall of peat turfs' type in a wire mesh former or 'bank in front' with room to turn and reload, but again, we were lucky to get half a dozen shots on the little shoot I occasionally attended.

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The risk of the gun accidentally going off is greatest at the actual closure.  There is another thread on these pages about just that happening.

If you load muzzles down, yes - it is of course necessary to raise them to shoot but;

• On a clays stand it should be safe anyway
• When shooting game and the beating line is close I stand muzzles up.  When reloading, I take care when re-raising the muzzles not to raise them through the line - it does need some 'planning' and it's fair to say my shooting is 'low rate' so a few cartridges per drive.

To me, closing the gun with the barrels pointed at the ground and not snapping them up is a 'no brainer'.  Raising the butt rather than the barrels helps in achieving that.  I have heard of more than one instance of guns going off 'at closure'.  Not had it happen myself.

Agreed.

On the rare and long ago occasions I have shot driven grouse (Wales), many of the 'butts' were either quite spacious enough (I was always alone, never a loader), or more commonly were the 'wall of peat turfs' type in a wire mesh former or 'bank in front' with room to turn and reload, but again, we were lucky to get half a dozen shots on the little shoot I occasionally attended.

Who is at risk if the gun goes off when closing? 
You won’t see anyone turn their back on a drive or close a gun muzzles down on a busy drive; it just doesn’t happen. 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

Who is at risk if the gun goes off when closing? 

I would hope no one, but it doesn't inspire confidence when a gun is pointed at 'person level'  and snapped shut.

 

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

ou won’t see anyone turn their back on a drive or close a gun muzzles down on a busy drive

Well I don't have drives that busy - and rushing to get the next shot off rapidly is never more important than good safe practice.  I regard closing the gun in a safe direction as part of safe practice.

[London Best]

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

You won’t see anyone turn their back on a drive or close a gun muzzles down on a busy drive; it just doesn’t happen. 

You are just SO WRONG it beggars belief!

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, London Best said:

You are just SO WRONG it beggars belief!

In what way? 
You may see some close a gun stock up initially, although there is no point because it still means you have to swing the muzzles vertically at some point, but on a busy peg you won’t see anyone do it. What is the point? What is gained by doing so? 

[JohnfromUK]

Can I ask the question another way round.

I do understand why you prefer a manual safety and leave it on 'fire'.  It isn't what I do, but I can understand that forgetting to slide it off is annoying and will cost you the shot in a competition.  I don't do competitions and have developed the habit of sliding the catch off as I mount the gun and that is now ingrained and works for me.  So I can see your objection to the auto safety.

I don't though see what possible objection there could be in pointing the muzzles at the ground when closing the gun?  I cannot see why anyone should have a problem with that?   Although beaters may be a long way off, there may be stops deployed, or possibly some other unseen 'accident waiting to happen'.  By having the muzzles pointing at the ground you are that bit safer - and at no extra trouble to you.

Where safety is concerned, as many reasonable safety precautions as can be included where they don't impede the task in hand are a common sense.

 

[Scully]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Can I ask the question another way round.

I do understand why you prefer a manual safety and leave it on 'fire'.  It isn't what I do, but I can understand that forgetting to slide it off is annoying and will cost you the shot in a competition.  I don't do competitions and have developed the habit of sliding the catch off as I mount the gun and that is now ingrained and works for me.  So I can see your objection to the auto safety.

I don't though see what possible objection there could be in pointing the muzzles at the ground when closing the gun?  I cannot see why anyone should have a problem with that?   Although beaters may be a long way off, there may be stops deployed, or possibly some other unseen 'accident waiting to happen'.  By having the muzzles pointing at the ground you are that bit safer - and at no extra trouble to you.

Where safety is concerned, as many reasonable safety precautions as can be included where they don't impede the task in hand are a common sense.

 

Certainly. It isn’t just an auto safety I object to on a shotgun, but any safety, because the person who uses it then thinks they’re safe; they aren’t. 
It is this false sense of security that gives rise to the comment ‘Its ok, the safeties on.’ 
People keep repeating the ‘it gives just that little bit extra safety’ like it’s some kind of mantra, but nobody can explain what that little bit extra comprises of!  A little bit extra safety against what? If anyone can explain to me what circumstances would arise where someone was dependant on that safety to prevent someone being shot, then I’m all ears. 
As for loading muzzles down, there’s no harm in it, I simply don’t see the point. It adds nothing to safety ( despite what some claim ) is totally impractical in the field, and in a butt whether you’re alone or the butt is huge, you end up with a loaded gun INSIDE the butt, and then when alls said and done you STILL have to swing the muzzles vertically to go about your job. 🤷‍♂️

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

It is this false sense of security that gives rise to the comment ‘Its ok, the safeties on.’ 

It's not a comment I would make and I can't recall ever having heard it said that way. 

I entirely agree that no one should rely on the safety.  But I also would expect that some accidental discharges (in a safe direction hopefully) have been prevented by a safety catch.  Personally I like to use the safety catch, and it is so habitual, that I don't even think about it.  I confess I can't think of any occasion where it has prevented an accidental discharge, but so what?  But I think we can agree to disagree on safety catches.  I also like my game guns to have intercepting safety.  Again unnecessary, but gives an additional layer of protection against discharge when the gun is subject to a shock.  No user intervention needed and many people probably don't even know if they have them fitted.

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

It adds nothing to safety

It does add the 'check' that the shot (in the event of a discharge goes harmlessly into the ground - not off for 100 yards or so which may (or may not) be clear of any victim.

16 minutes ago, Scully said:

is totally impractical in the field

Disagree.  It is completely practical to close the gun with the muzzles pointing at the ground.  I do it - game and clays.  I tend to use the 'self opener' style (video clip above) as I use a Beesley patent type self opener on occasions, but the muzzles still point at the ground when closing

On the grouse butt - I can't really comment any more as I have very little experience of them, and what little I do have is really just a distant memory.

To me, the extra safely 'layers' - trigger locking catch (as it possibly should be called), intercepting safety, and closing gun muzzles at the ground - are no extra trouble to do, and might just prove their value one day (I obviously hope the occasion never arises).

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Certainly. It isn’t just an auto safety I object to on a shotgun, but any safety, because the person who uses it then thinks they’re safe; they aren’t. 
It is this false sense of security that gives rise to the comment ‘Its ok, the safeties on.’ 
People keep repeating the ‘it gives just that little bit extra safety’ like it’s some kind of mantra, but nobody can explain what that little bit extra comprises of!  A little bit extra safety against what? If anyone can explain to me what circumstances would arise where someone was dependant on that safety to prevent someone being shot, then I’m all ears. 
As for loading muzzles down, there’s no harm in it, I simply don’t see the point. It adds nothing to safety ( despite what some claim ) is totally impractical in the field, and in a butt whether you’re alone or the butt is huge, you end up with a loaded gun INSIDE the butt, and then when alls said and done you STILL have to swing the muzzles vertically to go about your job. 🤷‍♂️

I think it was me that mentioned ‘it gives a little extra safety’ or some such similar words. Please let me explain. Sometimes when walked up shooting through thick cover, I do like the safety on just in case a branch touches the trigger. As most safety catches prevent the trigger moving, I find this useful. It just gives me a sense of security. I still have the habit of cupping the trigger guard in my hand to prevent contact with branches etc - belt and braces. These have become died in the wool habits really. I’ve enjoyed a fair bit of this type of shooting over the years - and I also think it has a lot of accident potential. 

I will emphasise however, I do not wholly rely on the safety and would never consider the gun to be absolutely safe, just because the safety is on. I still consider pointing the old thunder stick in a safe direction to be the most important aspect! I can’t think of any other types of shooting when I have genuinely found it useful. In all other circumstances (driven days, duck/pigeon hides, flight line shooting etc etc) I find an autosafe to be pretty redundant really. So in essence my preference for using one is restricted to a narrow niche - that of ‘walked up’ in thick cover. That’s it really. 

[Scully]

7 hours ago, Fellside said:

I think it was me that mentioned ‘it gives a little extra safety’ or some such similar words. Please let me explain. Sometimes when walked up shooting through thick cover, I do like the safety on just in case a branch touches the trigger. As most safety catches prevent the trigger moving, I find this useful. It just gives me a sense of security. I still have the habit of cupping the trigger guard in my hand to prevent contact with branches etc - belt and braces. These have become died in the wool habits really. I’ve enjoyed a fair bit of this type of shooting over the years - and I also think it has a lot of accident potential. 

I will emphasise however, I do not wholly rely on the safety and would never consider the gun to be absolutely safe, just because the safety is on. I still consider pointing the old thunder stick in a safe direction to be the most important aspect! I can’t think of any other types of shooting when I have genuinely found it useful. In all other circumstances (driven days, duck/pigeon hides, flight line shooting etc etc) I find an autosafe to be pretty redundant really. So in essence my preference for using one is restricted to a narrow niche - that of ‘walked up’ in thick cover. That’s it really. 

It wasn’t just you; various times ‘a little extra’ has been mentioned, as has ‘belt  ‘n’ braces’. 
Unless I was on my own in the circumstances you describe ( thick cover ) I’d just break the gun. 

[Scully]

10 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

It's not a comment I would make and I can't recall ever having heard it said that way. 

I entirely agree that no one should rely on the safety.  But I also would expect that some accidental discharges (in a safe direction hopefully) have been prevented by a safety catch.  Personally I like to use the safety catch, and it is so habitual, that I don't even think about it.  I confess I can't think of any occasion where it has prevented an accidental discharge, but so what?  But I think we can agree to disagree on safety catches.  I also like my game guns to have intercepting safety.  Again unnecessary, but gives an additional layer of protection against discharge when the gun is subject to a shock.  No user intervention needed and many people probably don't even know if they have them fitted.

It does add the 'check' that the shot (in the event of a discharge goes harmlessly into the ground - not off for 100 yards or so which may (or may not) be clear of any victim.

Disagree.  It is completely practical to close the gun with the muzzles pointing at the ground.  I do it - game and clays.  I tend to use the 'self opener' style (video clip above) as I use a Beesley patent type self opener on occasions, but the muzzles still point at the ground when closing

On the grouse butt - I can't really comment any more as I have very little experience of them, and what little I do have is really just a distant memory.

To me, the extra safely 'layers' - trigger locking catch (as it possibly should be called), intercepting safety, and closing gun muzzles at the ground - are no extra trouble to do, and might just prove their value one day (I obviously hope the occasion never arises).

Fair enough, we’ll have to disagree then. 
I’ve never seen anyone on a busy peg do anything other than close that gun as fast as possible; and it’s STILL to swing up through any line of beaters regardless of how far away they may be. Pointless. 
You must be pressed up against the horizontal bar in a trap cage if you can close a gun muzzles down without ending up with a live gun inside the cage. Good for you, but it still adds nothing to safety. 

[Old farrier]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

Fair enough, we’ll have to disagree then. 
I’ve never seen anyone on a busy peg do anything other than close that gun as fast as possible; and it’s STILL to swing up through any line of beaters regardless of how far away they may be. Pointless. 
You must be pressed up against the horizontal bar in a trap cage if you can close a gun muzzles down without ending up with a live gun inside the cage. Good for you, but it still adds nothing to safety. 

So in your experience would you care to share best safe practice for loading a gun in the field and in the cage 

I’m sure it would be helpful for the novices on the forum 

a little bit to add ive shot a lot of big days with busy pegs it’s rare to be busy when the beaters are close and very easy to stop and unload if you think there getting close before the horn goes 

I have seen two accidental discharges that I think could have been prevented by a auto safety 

both were jacket buttons catching the trigger on windy days on non auto safety guns 

[London Best]

26 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

 

both were jacket buttons catching the trigger on windy days on non auto safety guns 

And I am sure neither would have detonated if the non-auto safety had been used properly.......that is, on safe until the gun was being mounted.

[JohnfromUK]

42 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’ve never seen anyone on a busy peg do anything other than close that gun as fast as possible; and it’s STILL to swing up through any line of beaters regardless of how far away they may be.

However 'busy' the peg may be, keeping up with the activity should not be at the expense of safety.  Snapping the gun shut 'as fast as possible' isn't my idea of being as safe as you can be.

[Fellside]

52 minutes ago, Scully said:

It wasn’t just you; various times ‘a little extra’ has been mentioned, as has ‘belt  ‘n’ braces’. 
Unless I was on my own in the circumstances you describe ( thick cover ) I’d just break the gun. 

Yes - good practice. 
This is what I keep saying, if it’s open it’s safe, if it’s closed it’s not. 

[Down South]

So how do you modify a Laurona o/u to make the “safety catch”, manual.