HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched

[Peter Harris]

Guys , We have (9) nine more days to reply to the HSE consultation, get writing in and let them know your opinion please.

[wymberley]

On 03/11/2023 at 18:06, Scully said:

With the greatest respect ( because it seems like Groundhog Day with this topic ) there is NO difference between a steel shot proofed gun and a nitro proofed gun. 
Can anyone tell me what the difference is from a manufacturing point of view, or what you can do with a steel shot proofed gun that you can’t with a nitro proofed gun? 
 

This is not a topic for guesswork so I won't answer but just leave a question floating in the ether. How many pressure points are measured in both the tests for lead shot proof and also HP steel shot proof?

[Scully]

3 hours ago, wymberley said:

This is not a topic for guesswork so I won't answer but just leave a question floating in the ether. How many pressure points are measured in both the tests for lead shot proof and also HP steel shot proof?

It’s not guesswork; there is no difference in the manufacturing process for a nitro proofed gun or a steel proofed gun, unless a certain manufacturer decides to ‘beef’ up their barrels. The manufacturing process however, still remains the same. 
Your question is one perhaps better aimed at the proof house? 
 

[wymberley]

On 03/11/2023 at 18:06, Scully said:

With the greatest respect ( because it seems like Groundhog Day with this topic ) there is NO difference between a steel shot proofed gun and a nitro proofed gun. 
Can anyone tell me what the difference is from a manufacturing point of view, or what you can do with a steel shot proofed gun that you can’t with a nitro proofed gun? 
 

This is what you originally said

44 minutes ago, Scully said:

It’s not guesswork; there is no difference in the manufacturing process for a nitro proofed gun or a steel proofed gun, unless a certain manufacturer decides to ‘beef’ up their barrels. The manufacturing process however, still remains the same. 
Your question is one perhaps better aimed at the proof house? 
 

This is not the same thing.

[Scully]

35 minutes ago, wymberley said:

This is what you originally said

This is not the same thing.

And? There is no difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel shot proofed gun, so how would that mean the manufacturing process differed? 
I’m not sure what it is you’re getting at, but logic dictates the proof house wouldn’t undertake the reproofing of nitro proofed guns for HP steel if the manufacturing process differed. 
Have you asked the proof house regarding your question concerning ‘pressure points’? Have you asked the proof house what the difference is in the process of proofing for nitro and HP steel? 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

And? There is no difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel shot proofed gun, so how would that mean the manufacturing process differed? 
I’m not sure what it is you’re getting at, but logic dictates the proof house wouldn’t undertake the reproofing of nitro proofed guns for HP steel if the manufacturing process differed. 
Have you asked the proof house regarding your question concerning ‘pressure points’? Have you asked the proof house what the difference is in the process of proofing for nitro and HP steel? 

I am not talking about the/any differences in manufacturing processes only you are doing that and after all you are correct. I mean even Ford and Bentley share the same process with their products.

The difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel proofed one is obvious. My problem is is the fact that I was a technician and soon learned the validity of both of the Murphy's and Sod's Laws. This is an open forum and you never know who is going to pick up on what is said. When encouraging - because that is what it boils down to - folk that nitro and steel proof are compatible, has the fact that young Jimmy who has inherited his granddad's OU and has rightly been told that it is in (nitro) proof and who is looking forward to using it with some HP steel loads for some high pheasant been taken into account. Problem is is that young Jimmy hadn't noticed/didn't know anyway, what the funny looking 'R' under a crown meant. Cue Murphy and Sod.

Those of us who are old enough will have seen the WAGBI Chamber of Horrors. If we're not careful we could well see the 2nd Edition

I truly hope that it's me who has it all wrong but I fear with M&S on my side that that may well not be the case.

Edited December 1, 2023 by wymberley

[Old farrier]

22 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I am not talking about the/any differences in manufacturing processes only you are doing that and after all you are correct. I mean even Ford and Bentley share the same process. with their products.

The difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel proofed one is obvious. My problem is is the fact that I was a technician and soon learned the validity of both of the Murphy's and Sod's Laws. This is an open forum and you never know who is going to pick up on what is said. When encouraging - because that is what it boils down to - folk that nitro and steel proof are compatible, has the fact that young Jimmy who has inherited his granddad's OU and has rightly been told that it is in (nitro) proof and who is looking forward to using it with some HP steel loads for some high pheasant been taken into account. Problem is is that young Jimmy hadn't noticed/didn't know anyway, what the funny looking 'R' under a crown meant. Cue Murphy and Sod.

Those of us who are old enough will have seen the WAGBI Chamber of Horrors. If we're not careful we could well see the 2nd Edition

I truly hope that it's me who has it all wrong but I fear with M&S on my side that that may well not be the case.

This could be helped by the proof houses 

And

by them actually using steel of a specific type and size for the proof test with published results 

just my thoughts 

 

[wymberley]

3 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

This could be helped by the proof houses 

And

by them actually using steel of a specific type and size for the proof test with published results 

just my thoughts 

 

Good post. Your reward is a picture under 'Penknife' in 'Other sales'. 

[Scully]

28 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I am not talking about the/any differences in manufacturing processes only you are doing that and after all you are correct. I mean even Ford and Bentley share the same process with their products.

The difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel proofed one is obvious. My problem is is the fact that I was a technician and soon learned the validity of both of the Murphy's and Sod's Laws. This is an open forum and you never know who is going to pick up on what is said. When encouraging - because that is what it boils down to - folk that nitro and steel proof are compatible, has the fact that young Jimmy who has inherited his granddad's OU and has rightly been told that it is in (nitro) proof and who is looking forward to using it with some HP steel loads for some high pheasant been taken into account. Problem is is that young Jimmy hadn't noticed/didn't know anyway, what the funny looking 'R' under a crown meant. Cue Murphy and Sod.

Those of us who are old enough will have seen the WAGBI Chamber of Horrors. If we're not careful we could well see the 2nd Edition

I truly hope that it's me who has it all wrong but I fear with M&S on my side that that may well not be the case.

Well perhaps young Jimmy could use lead for the interim, as it hasn’t been banned, and in the intervening months or years between the changeover from lead to steel, if he hasn’t grown aware of the scaremongering concerning that changeover, and decided to ask questions as a result, then perhaps he’d be better off indoors. 
The only difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel proofed gun, is the proof marks. 

 

[wymberley]

7 hours ago, wymberley said:

How many pressure points are measured in both the tests for lead shot proof and also HP steel shot proof?

 

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

Well perhaps young Jimmy could use lead for the interim, as it hasn’t been banned, and in the intervening months or years between the changeover from lead to steel, if he hasn’t grown aware of the scaremongering concerning that changeover, and decided to ask questions as a result, then perhaps he’d be better off indoors. 
The only difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel proofed gun, is the proof marks. 

 

In which case you know the answer to the above question.

[Scully]

Just now, wymberley said:

 

In which case you know the answer to the above question.

I don’t, but there again I don’t need to. 🤷‍♂️

[Old farrier]

25 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Good post. Your reward is a picture under 'Penknife' in 'Other sales'. 

I noticed it 

unfortunately you never put a price 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

I noticed it 

unfortunately you never put a price 

No, sorry, I was just responding to your 'I was hoping to see......'. 

[Old farrier]

31 minutes ago, wymberley said:

No, sorry, I was just responding to your 'I was hoping to see......'. 

In the for sale section 🙄

[wymberley]

10 hours ago, Old farrier said:

In the for sale section 🙄

Yep, sorry, I was still in Off Topic where it started.

[wymberley]

14 hours ago, Scully said:

And? There is no difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel shot proofed gun, so how would that mean the manufacturing process differed? 
I’m not sure what it is you’re getting at, but logic dictates the proof house wouldn’t undertake the reproofing of nitro proofed guns for HP steel if the manufacturing process differed. 
Have you asked the proof house regarding your question concerning ‘pressure points’? Have you asked the proof house what the difference is in the process of proofing for nitro and HP steel? 

If, as you say, the only difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel gun is the proof marks and as it's already lead shot proven why, logically, wouldn't the proof house reproof for steel - it's already proved its worth? 

No, I haven't asked the proof house, but there again I don't need to.

[Scully]

10 hours ago, wymberley said:

If, as you say, the only difference between a nitro proofed gun and a steel gun is the proof marks and as it's already lead shot proven why, logically, wouldn't the proof house reproof for steel - it's already proved its worth? 

No, I haven't asked the proof house, but there again I don't need to.

But it isn’t ‘already’ lead shot proven. 
You would think that any and all new guns would automatically undergo HP steel shot proofing, but this obviously isn’t so, so I’m assuming any manufacturer will stipulate to the proof house what level of proof they want on any individual or batch of guns. 
The only guns ‘already’ lead shot proven are those that were bought as such, and then re-submitted for HP steel shot proofing, thereby meaning the vast majority of them will be secondhand. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Just a week left now for PW members to reply to the consultation on lead ban proposals before it closes on 10 December. There were 2,667 responses to last year's lead ban proposals consultation. Click the link below to respond.

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/lead-in-ammunition/consultation/

Edited December 3, 2023 by Conor O'Gorman

[Gordon R]

Scully - you have the patience of a saint.

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Scully - you have the patience of a saint.

😂Thank you. I’m sure some of it will stick somewhere, sometime, eventually. 

[London Best]

9 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Scully - you have the patience of a saint.

 

9 hours ago, Scully said:

😂Thank you. I’m sure some of it will stick somewhere, sometime, eventually. 

I often say, patience kills things.

[Peter Harris]

Did any of you see BBC1 Panorama last night ?

United Utilities were featured and questioned about the amount of raw sewage that they discharged into our Lakes, Rivers, Streams , Rivers , and Waterways, it was highlighted the amount of lack of action that the Environment Agency took over these alarming sewage discharges . Environment Agency an agency directly related to the Health and Safety Executive , the very same agency tasked with phasing out Lead Ammunition which has negligable recorded incidents of environmental harm and injury .

[Scully]

53 minutes ago, Peter Harris said:

Did any of you see BBC1 Panorama last night ?

United Utilities were featured and questioned about the amount of raw sewage that they discharged into our Lakes, Rivers, Streams , Rivers , and Waterways, it was highlighted the amount of lack of action that the Environment Agency took over these alarming sewage discharges . Environment Agency an agency directly related to the Health and Safety Executive , the very same agency tasked with phasing out Lead Ammunition which has negligable recorded incidents of environmental harm and injury .

It’s the same with every department of officialdom really, ( even firearms legislation ) when it suits a purpose rules and regulations will be strictly adhered to. When it doesn’t, well…..