BASC January 2024 podcast - voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting

[Konor]

19 minutes ago, Teal said:

I have just read the last couple of pages on here, and there are a couple of posts that I have removed. I understand there are strong feelings however, as always on the forum please be respectful of others. Thank you.

I am pleased that the thread has been allowed to continue as despite some heated ,if polite, posts the forum has allowed criticism of each others stances. I think it is healthier to air what are considered to be legitimate concerns in the hope that a greater understanding of the issues involved are examined rather than simply close down the thread.

[wymberley]

For the sake of accuracy, it may be worth noting that in the BASC lethality link in Hants Rob post above above that the standard steel No 3 shot isn't. It is a steel No 4 at the top end of the permitted tolerances. 3.25 + 0.05 = 3.3mm

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, HantsRob said:

Conor,

I will ask the question differently.

Question 1:

Did BASC propose the transition to steel, and then supported that proposal?
or
Was the transition to steel proposed, then BASC remains/remained committed to that proposal?

I can see how it could be that BASC didn't propose the transition, rather to lead the commitment to transition away?

Question 2:

I note with:
https://basc.org.uk/lead-vs-steel-a-question-of-lethality/

it answers some questions in a more scientific manner of shot size and patterning by Cranfield university. I note especially with excitement:
 

With that in mind and it was written in 2021, have any of those additional tests been performed independently by Cranfield University? I would be keen to see the results for lead in various shot size, Vs steel, vs HP Steel, vs "sustainable" ammunition.

 

The above is trying to remain as objective and not old-farty or biased, but hopefully to give a sightly different angle with a view of clarification and maybe more information that I haven't read.

Question 1:

Not steel shot - all non-lead shot and only for live quarry shooting.

Not BASC - 9 organisations - ie. BASC, British Game Alliance, Countryside Alliance, Country Land and Business Association, Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, National Gamekeepers’ Organisation, the Moorland Association, Scottish Land & Estates, and Scottish Association for Country Sports.

Question 2:

I don't know but have asked at BASC and will report back in due course.

As an aside, in BASC's December 2023 response to the HSE consultation (that very few on here have actually read by the looks of it) there are several refs to Cranfield University namely the following:

Restrictions on the use and the sale of lead shot for target shooting as a means of enforcing restrictions on the use of lead shot for live quarry shooting are not appropriate because this is mission creep and outside the scope of the HSE review.

If there is a restriction recommended for lead shot for live quarry shooting it must be evidence based and proportionate to the evidenced risk. We encourage the regulator to work closely with the sector to secure realistic transition periods that account for global supply chain issues.

As such, there should also be a review by an independent body to ensure the availability of the c80 million cartridges needed across all gauges of shotgun before any legislation comes in to force. This review should be conducted by an external independent body such as Cranfield University and be funded by Defra/HSE.

BASC remains committed to the shooting sector’s voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. The transition so far has been a success, given the challenges faced, such as the war in Ukraine and Covid.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-hse-lead-ammunition-consultation/

 

[wymberley]

Apologies, got called away. 

However, the surface area is as given - 9.24mm) -  matches a lead No 2 but which equates (loosely) to a steel No 3 at 3.43mm (0.135").

[Conor O'Gorman]

38 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

BASC proposed it 'voluntary' phase out of lead shot for live quarry in 2020, as has been discussed, at length, without consultation , from its membership, and without any input from cartridge manufacturers.
It continued to tout the 'toxicity' of lead, and the benefits of using steel shot...A lot.

Then coincidently , a year later, the HSE announced it would be looking at banning lead for firearm projectiles across the board..
I asked Conor at the time, if BASC had any forewarning of this inquiry, after some pushing and shoving , he said no.
So 'coincidently' a lead ban is on the cards for all shotgun use, yet BASC are now rigorously 'fighting the HSE lead ban proposals since 2021' ?
I would ask , what went wrong, did you have an agreement with government, that they have reneged on ?
Is it all smoke and mirrors ?

No Conor, there are a LOT of people on here, and elsewhere who are not happy at all with BASCs stance and behaviour around this matter.
Its contradictory, seemingly dishonest and evasive, to say the criticism of BASC is misinformative is clearly a deflection from your own stance.
To say its personal, after you yourself have made various insults and personal attacks is laughable.

People ask you straight forward questions which you evade, or 'refer to BASC press release' which does not answer the question, when pushed, you resort to the personal attacks.

Ill give you this , you are persistent , maybe thick skinned, but your obvious anger shows through in some highly unprofessional ways at times, its not just here , you get the same if not worse on the SD.
Why you dont just ignore the dissenters and preach just to the converted Im not sure.
Maybe you like the conflict, but its one youre losing.

I present the facts as they are - back to the source - BASC published information, and I am not inclined to spend time getting drawn into argumentative questions, or correcting relentless and numerous assertions and misinformation - your comments above a classic case in point - in that despite my spending time explaining the timeline and events in at least one previous thread, you repeat the same assertions so I might as well not have bothered in the first instance. 

[Konor]

34 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

so I might as well not have bothered in the first instance. 

I can sympathise with your argument but your replies to my posts ,such as they were, in contrast contained no clarification or relevant information concerning the specific issues raised.

It seems you cherry pick which issues you choose to respond to and leave the uncomfortable questions unanswered.

I think that’s a fair appraisal of your contribution to this thread.

 If you were more disposed to dealing with the future and the future of our shooting heritage rather than dwelling on the past you might go some way towards attaining the level of representation that the average shooting member deserves and expects.

Edited January 19 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 minutes ago, Konor said:

I can sympathise with your argument but your replies to my posts ,such as they were, in contrast contained no clarification or relevant information. It seems you cherry pick which issues you choose to respond to and leave the uncomfortable questions unanswered. I think that’s a fair appraisal of your contribution to this thread.

That is what I was hoping to achieve by a phone call with you because there were a lot of questions and queries and concerns and in the many years I have been engaging with people on this forum (not my day job although it was crept into it today) sometimes a phone call can help. But that was basically thrown back in my face many times and indeed twisted into something else. As regards cherry picking what I comment on, yes of course I will - my time is finite and I am not just going to start publishing new policy statements on the hoof. I have considered your perspective, please consider mine.

[Konor]

38 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I am not inclined to spend time getting drawn into argumentative questions

But you have spent an enormous amount of time on this thread and yet have so far refused to answer pertinent specific questions.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 minute ago, Konor said:

But you have spent an enormous amount of time on this thread and yet have so far refused to answer pertinent specific questions.

I am available for the next hour to talk. I will PM you my phone number. Let's draw a line under it please.

[Konor]

4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That is what I was hoping to achieve by a phone call with you

As I have explained the issue is not  about placating me but having issues raised on the forum dealt with on the forum in the interests of transparency and accountability 

[Konor]

4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Let's draw a line under it please.

I consider it a healthy state of affairs if an organisation can be held to account on an open forum and as such I am not open to private phone calls.
You will note that I have stuck to questioning you consistently with issues I feel should be addressed and not hounded you on every thread that you have started or contributed to. I am definitely not taking the discussion on this thread personally and hope you are able to do the same however if I feel criticism is due I will criticise. I stated earlier that I am open to having my stance altered by a well argued and sincere argument but unfortunately no such information has been forthcoming to make me question my belief that ,to put it bluntly , we are being sold out in the interests of political expediency

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I present the facts as they are - back to the source - BASC published information, and I am not inclined to spend time getting drawn into argumentative questions, or correcting relentless and numerous assertions and misinformation - your comments above a classic case in point - in that despite my spending time explaining the timeline and events in at least one previous thread, you repeat the same assertions so I might as well not have bothered in the first instance. 

What you mean is , you will tout the BASC line , say these are 'facts' and when anyone questions you , they are argumentative ?
Thanks for clarifying.

 

45 minutes ago, Konor said:

It seems you cherry pick which issues you choose to respond to and leave the uncomfortable questions unanswered.

I think that’s a fair appraisal of your contribution to this thread.

Its actually every thread concerning BASC.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

As I have explained the issue is not  about placating me but having issues raised on the forum dealt with on the forum in the interests of transparency and accountability 

I never said it was about placating you  - its about having a conversation which is a different type of communication to that on a forum. There is an irony however in what you state on transparency and accountability when it is clear who I am (Conor O'Gorman) and who I am accountable to (BASC) when I post on this forum whereas those asking me questions are unknown and not really accountable to anyone.

1 hour ago, Konor said:

I consider it a healthy state of affairs if an organisation can be held to account on an open forum and as such I am not open to private phone calls.
You will note that I have stuck to questioning you consistently with issues I feel should be addressed and not hounded you on every thread that you have started or contributed to. I am definitely not taking the discussion on this thread personally and hope you are able to do the same however if I feel criticism is due I will criticise. I stated earlier that I am open to having my stance altered by a well argued and sincere argument but unfortunately no such information has been forthcoming to make me question my belief that ,to put it bluntly , we are being sold out in the interests of political expediency

Which organisations can be held to account on which open forum? I don't know of any examples. On which open forum is your wildfowling club held to account? Does your club not have rules, committee meetings and an AGM. Do club members and committee members have phone calls? Me posting updates on PW as an individual and me answering questions is not a means of holding BASC to account. You really have the wrong end of the stick there. Again discussing your expectations of my activity on this forum was another topic for our phone call.

1 hour ago, Konor said:

I consider it a healthy state of affairs if an organisation can be held to account on an open forum and as such I am not open to private phone calls.
You will note that I have stuck to questioning you consistently with issues I feel should be addressed and not hounded you on every thread that you have started or contributed to. I am definitely not taking the discussion on this thread personally and hope you are able to do the same however if I feel criticism is due I will criticise. I stated earlier that I am open to having my stance altered by a well argued and sincere argument but unfortunately no such information has been forthcoming to make me question my belief that ,to put it bluntly , we are being sold out in the interests of political expediency

What evidence can you present to support your assertion that "we are being sold out in the interests of political expediency"?

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

What you mean is , you will tout the BASC line , say these are 'facts' and when anyone questions you , they are argumentative ?
Thanks for clarifying.

 

Its actually every thread concerning BASC.

If you are so sure of your opinion of me why do you continue to comment and ask questions of me on every BASC thread? Albeit to be fair, you have been quiet for several months on BASC threads, and the Konor account has come out of long dormancy filling the vacuum so to speak. 

[Konor]

18 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Which organisations can be held to account on which open forum?

BASC is the only organisation I was referring to and being held to account or questioned if you prefer on this PigeonWatch forum

23 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

me answering questions is not a means of holding BASC to account.

But you’re not answering questions that’s the crux of the matter

[Konor]

25 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

What evidence can you present to support your assertion that "we are being sold out in the interests of political expediency"?

That there have been no reference to any concessions being sought by BASC and that the main thrust of BASC’s position on the imposition of further legislation is that they disagree with it.

If you were to read my posts you would see that you have little need to question , the content is plainly laid out. You should perhaps consider answering the questions I have raised instead of wasting your time deflecting attention away from my main points.

As I have already stated circular arguments that fail to address the points made are a waste of both your time and mine

[Gordon R]

This is definitely my last post on this thread. 

I have never come across a poster who side stepped straight questions with such skill. Step forward Conor O'Gorman.

You post on a public forum and then when it gets a bit difficult, you resort to offering a phone call. Posters who decline the dubious offer could well find themselves open to questions about what have they got against a phone conversation. The published track record of a phone call to yourself suggests nothing got settled and further calls would be a waste of time.

If you cannot see the problem with such a call, I worry about your intelligence and motives.

You raise a matter in public, but want to end it in private. That says it all.

[Conor O'Gorman]

10 minutes ago, Konor said:

BASC is the only organisation I was referring to and being held to account or questioned if you prefer on this PigeonWatch forum.

BASC does not post on PW. BASC posts on its own social media accounts. Perhaps check out BASC's Facebook page where there are regular policy updates - you could perhaps try engaging directly there?

https://www.facebook.com/BASCuk/?locale=en_GB

BASC holds elections for its Council members and BASC Council are responsible for policy. Do you vote in the elections? 

https://basc.org.uk/basc-council-elections/

BASC holds an AGM open to all members to attend and ask questions. Have you ever attended a BASC AGM and raised questions directly there about BASC's position on lead ammunition?

https://basc.org.uk/agm/

 

[Newbie to this]

38 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

and who I am accountable to (BASC)

BASC is nothing without it's membership, right?

So surely you (BASC) should be accountable to the members, hence why people can't fathom why the membership was not consulted on what route BASC should take on the Lead ban (sorry voluntary phase out), that BASC spearheaded.

BASC say they are the voice of shooting, but failed to even see if they are the voice of their membership.

Edited January 19 by Newbie to this

[Old farrier]

28 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

If you are so sure of your opinion of me why do you continue to comment and ask questions of me on every BASC thread? Albeit to be fair, you have been quiet for several months on BASC threads, and the Konor account has come out of long dormancy filling the vacuum so to speak. 

I’m going to try to make this simple with some simple questions for you to answer this is to gauge how passionate you are about game shooting 

do you go beating?

do you have a gun dog for picking up? 

do you actually shoot game?

if so what type of days? 

and 

could you be kind enough to tell us the gun and choke cartridge combination that you use

many thanks 

of 

Edited January 19 by Old farrier

[Rewulf]

32 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

If you are so sure of your opinion of me why do you continue to comment and ask questions of me on every BASC thread? Albeit to be fair, you have been quiet for several months on BASC threads, and the Konor account has come out of long dormancy filling the vacuum so to speak. 

Theres only so many times I can ask a straight forward question, watch you side step the question and insult me personally.
I was not going to post in this thread as youre taking a virtual beating without me, but your condescendance is that staggering , I just couldnt help myself.

Edited January 19 by Rewulf

[Old farrier]

Just to add if any members or moderators think this is a unfair question please comment or delete 

just to put it in perspective I’m similar to a few others 

I beat with my dogs 

I pick up with my other dogs 

i shoot game at the higher end of the scale mostly big days on partridge and high bordering extreme on pheasant 

gun of choice English fixed choke side by side for partridge cylinder and half eley impax 7 

for pheasant English over and under tight 3/4 and tight 1/2 choke rc sipe 32 gram 5 

 

Edited January 19 by Old farrier
Spelling

[Konor]

55 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC does not post on PW. BASC posts on its own social media accounts. Perhaps check out BASC's Facebook page where there are regular policy updates - you could perhaps try engaging directly there?

https://www.facebook.com/BASCuk/?locale=en_GB

BASC holds elections for its Council members and BASC Council are responsible for policy. Do you vote in the elections? 

https://basc.org.uk/basc-council-elections/

BASC holds an AGM open to all members to attend and ask questions. Have you ever attended a BASC AGM and raised questions directly there about BASC's position on lead ammunition?

https://basc.org.uk/agm/

 

I don’t do any social media. 
  As I don’t know anyone personally standing for election I don’t vote and I have never attended an AGM . Incidentally out of your 150000 membership what is your percentage turn out for such an event.

As an aside instead of continually wasting time on issues that I have not brought up on the forum could you perhaps spend a fraction of that time in answering the questions I have posted  and that I have posted from the beginning of this thread.

 Your whole approach is to evade having to discuss uncomfortable questions raised on the forum ,your presence in effect is pointless as all you post I assume can be accessed on the BASC website. Exactly why do you bother posting if you are not prepared to supply relevant feedback on issues raised from the content you post.

 As I have done you the courtesy of replying to your questions perhaps you can return the courtesy and reply to all of mine starting from the beginning of this thread. I await your reply with interest.

 

 

[Konor]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

If you are so sure of your opinion of me why do you continue to comment and ask questions of me on every BASC thread? Albeit to be fair, you have been quiet for several months on BASC threads, and the Konor account has come out of long dormancy filling the vacuum so to speak. 

I have not been dormant Conor , but perhaps you could substantiate that claim with the necessary dates or retract the statement.  I will be expecting a retraction as your continual unsubstantiated claims cannot continue to go unchallenged so do the necessary checks then please get back to me promptly in the interests of accuracy and fairness.

Edit to add

I checked myself Conor 23 pages of activity and no dormant periods I expect an apology at the same time I also expect you to justify the belligerent BASC basher label you labelled me with by showing me posts prior to that to back up your claim. Should you fail to be able to do this I will expect another apology.

 

 

If you were to spend some time checking you will find I have spent time on the forum contributing to various threads , mostly celebrating different aspects of the sport with like minded shooters. 
Facts aren’t your strong suit obviously and your inability to supply any in response to the questions I have raised is testament to that.You flatter yourself if you think I have come out of dormancy specifically to take you to task though I do think it is long overdue that someone did.  You have spent your time on here mainly deflecting and filling your posts with pointless irrelevancies when it would be better spent addressing the issues that have been brought up in response to the statements you have made. You also have a tendency to flail around desperately trying to fill your posts with anything that avoids the points being raised it’s not a good look and reflects badly on you as I’m sure must be obvious to anyone reading through this thread.

Edited January 19 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

I’m going to try to make this simple with some simple questions for you to answer this is to gauge how passionate you are about game shooting 

do you go beating?

do you have a gun dog for picking up? 

do you actually shoot game?

if so what type of days? 

and 

could you be kind enough to tell us the gun and choke cartridge combination that you use

many thanks 

of 

do you go beating? no

do you have a gun dog for picking up? no

do you actually shoot game? yes

if so what type of days?  rough shooting

could you be kind enough to tell us the gun and choke cartridge combination that you use? No, I am not publishing details about firearms on a public forum. I will PM you that info.