Steel shot testing YouTube video

[Bernard]

1 hour ago, edenman said:

Please forgive my ignorance… but how do you work out the mass of the shot?

It’s the total payload minus the wad. So 32grams or whatever.

[muncher]

The great myth about high velocity steel shot cartridges. I believe that a charge fired at 1500fps and a same charge fired at 1300fps have equal speed and penetration at 42 yards. Therefore all you gain from high velocity cartridges is poorer patterns , recoil and smaller shot charge. This not my findings , this is physics. 

Edited January 20 by muncher

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, edenman said:

Please forgive my ignorance… but how do you work out the mass of the shot?

it this case it just the weight of the shot in Kg, so for a 32gm cartridge the momentum for example would be

Ns = velocity in m/s x 32. e,g 430x0.032 = 13.76 Ns

CIP uses the velocity at 2.5 meters to determine the momentum.

Which looks like I previously made an error when I got 13.44 in the earlier post, which therefore must mean wymberley V1 is at 1 meter otherwise if at 2.5meter 13.76Ns would be over the 13.5 that CIP allows 12/70 HP and gamebore would not do that.

So from that you can deduce that they are doing nearly 422 m/s at 2.5 meters. (13.5/0.032)

 

Edited January 20 by rbrowning2

[edenman]

Many thanks for explaining that.

My problem was I wasn’t converting fps in to mps.

[wymberley]

19 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

it this case it just the weight of the shot in Kg, so for a 32gm cartridge the momentum for example would be

Ns = velocity in m/s x 32. e,g 430x0.032 = 13.76 Ns

CIP uses the velocity at 2.5 meters to determine the momentum.

Which looks like I previously made an error when I got 13.44 in the earlier post, which therefore must mean wymberley V1 is at 1 meter otherwise if at 2.5meter 13.76Ns would be over the 13.5 that CIP allows 12/70 HP and gamebore would not do that.

So from that you can deduce that they are doing nearly 422 m/s at 2.5 meters. (13.5/0.032)

 

Can't be precise owing to (minor) discrepancies in shot size but nearer to 400 m/s. Academic really as more to the point if you go with the generally recognised (lead) pellet 1.5ftlb energy requirement to cleanly kill a cock pheasant, then in this instance the max' range would be some 55 yards.

[Bernard]

On 20/01/2024 at 16:35, muncher said:

The great myth about high velocity steel shot cartridges. I believe that a charge fired at 1500fps and a same charge fired at 1300fps have equal speed and penetration at 42 yards. Therefore all you gain from high velocity cartridges is poorer patterns , recoil and smaller shot charge. This not my findings , this is physics. 

Sort of:

At sea level and at zero degrees;

a Steel BB fired at 1500fps MV will arrive at 42 yards going 764 fps and will achieve 2.38” of 20% Ballistic Gelatin penetration.

Same BB fired at 1300fos gets 705 yards and gets 2.38” gel penetration.

the BB that started out 200fps faster is only 59fps faster at 42 yards.

 

With a 7lb gun and a 32gram payload the faster load comes with 8.3 ft lbs of additional recoil. 37 vs 28.7ftlb.

[muncher]

10 minutes ago, Bernard said:

Sort of:

At sea level and at zero degrees;

a Steel BB fired at 1500fps MV will arrive at 42 yards going 764 fps and will achieve 2.38” of 20% Ballistic Gelatin penetration.

Same BB fired at 1300fos gets 705 yards and gets 2.38” gel penetration.

the BB that started out 200fps faster is only 59fps faster at 42 yards.

 

With a 7lb gun and a 32gram payload the faster load comes with 8.3 ft lbs of additional recoil. 37 vs 28.7ftlb.

I wasn’t far off, but you have verified my point, thank you. 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, muncher said:

I wasn’t far off, but you have verified my point, thank you. 

Better than you thought but it does depend on who you listen to/read.

I'd go for 709 and 4.25 but 4.06 if you add in a boundary layer for the 1500.

Similarly, 678 and 3.03 but 2.87 if you add in a boundary layer for the 1300.

The difference in the 42 yard velocity is just 31.

For the recoil, I make the velocity for 1500/1300 as 15.13/13.12 ft/sec and for the energy 24.9 and 18.73 ftlbs.

Except for the recoil, all is much the same with no real difference in performance.

[Bernard]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Better than you thought but it does depend on who you listen to/read.

I'd go for 709 and 4.25 but 4.06 if you add in a boundary layer for the 1500.

Similarly, 678 and 3.03 but 2.87 if you add in a boundary layer for the 1300.

The difference in the 42 yard velocity is just 31.

For the recoil, I make the velocity for 1500/1300 as 15.13/13.12 ft/sec and for the energy 24.9 and 18.73 ftlbs.

Except for the recoil, all is much the same with no real difference in performance.

I wasn’t doing any sums. I was just punching numbers into KPY. Yours might be with an ISA standard atmosphere.

[rbrowning2]

BB is HP steel only, likely 3” or more chamber length.

[wymberley]

10 hours ago, Bernard said:

I wasn’t doing any sums. I was just punching numbers into KPY. Yours might be with an ISA standard atmosphere.

The penetration is really a function of velocity and our figures for that are close. Those for recoil energy are in a different ballpark and relate to all of the ejecta which I didn't take into account. Factor in the weight of the wads and powder and anything else in addition to the shot which may whizz out of the barrel and our discrepancy will reduce.

[mgsontour]

On 19/01/2024 at 09:34, Bernard said:

I suspect this is the fault of UK Cartridge manufacturers, CiP limitations and a failure to look at the utter encyclopedia of evidence produced in the states as they have added more and more lead shot restrictions over the last 40+ years. Shot size is important and multiple studies showed this.

 

Large scale US FWS study with blind loaded cartridges, volunteer hunters and paid observers, using half lead and half steel (steel was appropriately loaded based on their studies) showed no statistical difference in the post shot reaction with shots to 60+ yards.  I’ll dig out the link.

He sumarises the various double blind studies, on Geese, Ducks, turkeys, pheasants, quail and dove here. Not opinion. Fact.

These studies were very well designed and funded by the US government through their conservation act. Can’t think what it’s called now, MacArthur or something.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/steel-shot-lethality-testing/

Very interesting indeed; thank you for sharing