ShootHub Podcast - lead shot latest with BASC's Terry Behan

[udderlyoffroad]

6 minutes ago, Konor said:

Any data to back that assertion or just a baseless assumption to strengthen your case

The same data as all those screaming on here that because the orgs came out with a voluntary transition, the HSE fired up the ban machine. 

Nobody has even attempted, in 7 pages of this thread, or any other, to back that assertion up with data.  But seemingly it must be true.

 

7 minutes ago, Konor said:

How do you know how much effort and work people that have expressed their opinion on this thread contribute to the future of our sport perhaps some of them do a significant amount more than yourself.

Because there's always nothing but the sound  of crickets when people (not just me) ask what they've done other than moan.

The loudest voices on here are the usual keyboard warriors, who do nothing pro-active.  If you wish to disagree with this basic truism of the internet, go right ahead.

For the record, very happy to be proved wrong on this with a flood of posts of people telling us what they've done. 

16 minutes ago, Konor said:

they are saying that shooting is yet again facing further restrictions and there has been no scientific data to justify those restrictions.

Tell me you don't understand the phrase 'precautionary principle' without telling me...

 

18 minutes ago, Konor said:

Your disagreement seems to lie to a great extent on the older generation’s views on the thread and I wonder if that is the root of your problem.

You like me have no idea how old posters are.

My problem is people hell bent on looking backwards and unwillingness to engage with the realpolitik of 2024, not 1974.  If you think that's a generational thing, then so be it.  I think it's another manifestation of the false nostalgia we see so often on here, which in my experience isn't necessarily a function of age.

And I get it, the whole point of shooting for me is to get away from 'life' for a bit.  Countryside walk with a gun and the mongrel, get some dinner.  Or play at being gamekeeper at our syndicate.  But I also don't feel the need to do it whilst denying the world is changing.

[Conor O'Gorman]

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

With a body like mine , MEAT is the only option 

No worries, but if you like your spices, just go easy on the cinnamon!

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Bigteddy1954 said:

Hi lets have a vote between all pigeon watch members yes or a no against transition away from lead .i will start with against .ty 

Maybe set up a web poll if PW has functionality for that? Not sure though how you can be for or against something that is voluntary in the first place!

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Maybe set up a web poll if PW has functionality for that? Not sure though how you can be for or against something that is voluntary in the first place!

Why propose something that was voluntary in the first place ?

[udderlyoffroad]

40 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im sure there are plenty of others who just quietly do their thing without needing any recognition for it.

 

37 minutes ago, Konor said:

Is it seriously your belief that unless people spend time writing on the forum about what they do in their free time to support shooting then it is not happening.

No.  It's not about recognition, and we do need be more vocal about what we do, yes.

39 minutes ago, Konor said:

There’s a generation that are not obsessed with discussing their lives with strangers on forums and they are usually to busy doing stuff rather than trying to create an online persona

You seem far more into generational divides than me - nobody is suggesting you become an social medjia (sic) influencer, but at least tell us it happened.   Lead by example and all that.

 

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You mentioned it !

Actually I said the biggest lesson from Dunblane, was united we stand, divide we fall.  You asked whether it would've made a difference.  I agree that it likely wouldn't have made much of a difference, not that we're ever told what-ifs, but that doesn't somehow invalidate lesson on the need to present a united front.

But that's the second what-if you've presented, the other being the 'Leadxit' referendum that didn't happen.  I don't think discussing either gets us much further forward, to be honest.

[Conor O'Gorman]

7 hours ago, clangerman said:

how can you expect a next generation when we have basc on here screaming toxic toxic to the public every day you reap what you sow! 

On 25/04/2024 at 11:56, clangerman said:

yet another round of argument and division the solution is simple connor Gorman has to GO! 

I think you are right. I need to go to save the next generation. Also, as I approach 1000 posts it was all in vain as people mistake me for David and still can't spell my name.

 

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

None of the handful posting about the end of shooting and conspiracies on lead are posting and helping out in the PCC elections thread. As ever it was.

thats because unlike basc everyone else’s priority in a pcc is safety and cutting crime rather than ownership of a mere firearm! 

[Old farrier]

22 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Maybe set up a web poll if PW has functionality for that? Not sure though how you can be for or against something that is voluntary in the first place!

How about setting up a lead versus steel shooting competition 

Basc steel 

pw lead 

PW steel for those members who think it’s better 

obviously Basc won’t have any staff members that haven’t moved away from lead 

[Penelope]

32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Why propose something that was voluntary in the first place ?

😁

[Konor]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

The same data as all those screaming on here that because the orgs came out with a voluntary transition, the HSE fired up the ban machine. 

Not a point of view I’ve expressed and not relevant to the points I have made

 

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Because there's always nothing but the sound  of crickets when people (not just me) ask what they've done other than moan.

The loudest voices on here are the usual keyboard warriors, who do nothing pro-active.  If you wish to disagree with this basic truism of the internet, go right ahead.

So an assumption based on a generalisation

 

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Tell me you don't understand the phrase 'precautionary principle' without telling me...

 

Are you prepared to be restricted in your sport on the basis of a precautionary principle that is open to being politically driven

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You like me have no idea how old posters are.

But you are making the assumption by generalising that those outspoken against BASC’s stance are of an age to have been campaigning against the handgun ban.

 

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

But I also don't feel the need to do it whilst denying the world is changing.

Are you quite willing to accept every change against your best interests.

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I agree that it likely wouldn't have made much of a difference, not that we're ever told what-ifs, but that doesn't somehow invalidate lesson on the need to present a united front.

I think youve hit the nail on the head, I fully agree we need a united front, but united in regards to what ?
How did BASC et al decide what the 'united front' wanted, did they do surveys, and the majority wanted to phase out lead ?
Did they do ANY research on what the take up on a possible 'voluntary' transition would be ?

No , THEY decided whats best for us (or them) and moved forward relentless, and any dissent is classed as a 'vocal minority' How do they know ?
The take up on steel shot for game is minimal, theres the answer to how united we are, and thats no doing of mine , or 'the handful'

24 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

But that's the second what-if you've presented, the other being the 'Leadxit' referendum that didn't happen.  I don't think discussing either gets us much further forward, to be honest.

Personally I think it needs discussing, without the name calling and accusations of being on the side of the antis.

The shooting orgs who we trust to look after our interests, have time and again bottled it in the face of new encroaching legislation, what exactly is the point of them ?
In the lead debacle, they played their hand too soon, they should have waited till the HSE fielded the consultation, THEN asked the membership to move away from lead, and more importantly WHY this was important.
Instead we have mixed messages about birds ingesting shot , or to create a market for lead free game meat.
Neither of which lack any weight with the majority of shooters.
Think about it , a person who only ever shoots clays, never eats game, or cares too much about the odd wildfowl who dies of lead poisoning before someone shoots it, is now going to have the extra expense and aggro of the impending ban. 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

My problem is people hell bent on looking backwards and unwillingness to engage with the realpolitik of 2024

I’m very much aware of the threat that exists now in 2024 to the continuation of our sport . Giving  ground to those who oppose us and defaulting immediately to concession is not a strong position to put yourself in. I know that personally from experience negotiating wildfowling conditions on one of the largest LNRs in the U.K.

[Konor]

57 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Not sure though how you can be for or against something that is voluntary in the first place!

Perhaps a vote on whether the voluntary move to lead in conjunction with advertising the toxicity of lead shot inland then deciding that BASC is actually against a lead ban made sense might be a more relevant question to ask

[Gordon R]

Rewulf - read the links you provided. Mainly quite positive towards going to steel shot, but a few potential problems. 

Maximum range of 35 yards.

More birds wounded and flying off - Germany insisting in a dog to retrieve game, but just how far away are they dropping?

Birds shot with steel looking a mess and therefore unappealing to potential game eaters.

[Konor]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

No.  It's not about recognition, and we do need be more vocal about what we do, yes.

What we do speaks for itself and so much more important than advertising the fact. Who’s to know that your claims about what you are doing actually occurred. Introducing people to live quarry shooting ,distributing game ,encouraging participation or taking out people clay shooting is the important aspect. Talking about it within an echo chamber is arguably less productive. It’s the people introduced to the experience that hold the greatest value, their enthusiasm when relating their experience to similar individuals creates a positive image of our sport to those undecided whether they are pro or anti fieldsports 

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think you are right. I need to go to save the next generation. Also, as I approach 1000 posts it was all in vain as people mistake me for David and still can't spell my name.

 

I disagree ,as a catalyst for debate your presence is valuable. The fact that you take so much flak and continue on is testament to your character. 
It’s a pity so much of the flak is well deserved but we are where we are.

Edited April 26 by Konor

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Rewulf - read the links you provided. Mainly quite positive towards going to steel shot, but a few potential problems. 

Maximum range of 35 yards.

More birds wounded and flying off - Germany insisting in a dog to retrieve game, but just how far away are they dropping?

Birds shot with steel looking a mess and therefore unappealing to potential game eaters.

Agreed, for all those that insist its as good , if not better than lead, have either deluded themselves, or havent actually used it.
Ive used it, its not terrible on clays at sensible ranges, but high bird shooting just isnt feasible, as attested to in the article.

[Konor]

23 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

More birds wounded and flying off - Germany insisting in a dog to retrieve game, but just how far away are they dropping?

Birds shot with steel looking a mess and therefore unappealing to potential game eaters

Restricted range ,increased incidence of birds flying on before dropping and excessive damage to game shot closer are my main objections to the use of steel shot. Factor in its unsuitability and potential to damage older guns barrels and that’s too many reasons for me not to opt to use steel unless it’s in my 10 bore or 3 1/2 inch chambered 12 bore semi auto with larger shot.

Edited April 26 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Why propose something that was voluntary in the first place ?

I think it was about accepting there was conclusive evidence on the impact of lead shot on birds - if you can't admit the problem it makes a solution less likely - we were all in denial up to that point - some still are!

40 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

for all those that insist its as good , if not better than lead, have either deluded themselves, or havent actually used it.

Maybe listen to the podcast on how patterning one's gun makes the difference.

35 minutes ago, Konor said:

Factor in its unsuitability and potential to damage older guns barrels and that’s too many reasons for me not to opt to use steel

Maybe listen to the podcast - this is all covered.

[Konor]

22 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Maybe listen to the podcast - this is all covered.

I have listened and honestly considered it a complete waste of time. Your insistence that it is worthy of praise is surprising. Is this due to low standards, an echo chamber effect, non critical listening or just politically expedient in nature, it’s hard to determine. That’s the problem when you are trying too hard to appeal to listeners rather than basing your content on factual informative comment aimed at a critical knowledgable audience. Sorry Conor but nul points from me. Maybe start singing from a different song sheet if you aspire to a more positive review.

Have you decided yet on the form your question should take on the PW forum to measure your level of support yet ? 

Edited April 26 by Konor

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think it was about accepting there was conclusive evidence on the impact of lead shot on birds - if you can't admit the problem it makes a solution less likely - we were all in denial up to that point - some still are!

Maybe listen to the podcast on how patterning one's gun makes the difference.

Maybe listen to the podcast - this is all covered.

Well I spent a lot of money and time getting my gun bored and regulated to throw the appropriate patterns for my own type of shooting 

I have asked repeatedly over the years for some advice and information on what to have them rebored to to get the same pattern no one can give me the information 

so what is the answer? 
 

has anyone achieved a cylinder pattern? 
Or a 1/4 choke 

what cartridge do I have to use in non lead bio wad that’s not going to be obsolete in a year 

the answer to this isn’t ask a gunsmith or ask the cartridge manufacturer of have multi chokes and experiment 

please note I’m not the only person who will have to foot the bill for all the choke altering regulating not to mention the cartridges and time pattern testing 

[Conor O'Gorman]

7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Well I spent a lot of money and time getting my gun bored and regulated to throw the appropriate patterns for my own type of shooting 

I have asked repeatedly over the years for some advice and information on what to have them rebored to to get the same pattern no one can give me the information 

so what is the answer? 
 

has anyone achieved a cylinder pattern? 
Or a 1/4 choke 

what cartridge do I have to use in non lead bio wad that’s not going to be obsolete in a year 

the answer to this isn’t ask a gunsmith or ask the cartridge manufacturer of have multi chokes and experiment 

please note I’m not the only person who will have to foot the bill for all the choke altering regulating not to mention the cartridges and time pattern testing 

You would be best talking to Terry Behan. It will really help you.

11 minutes ago, Konor said:

I have listened and honestly considered it a complete waste of time. Your insistence that it is worthy of praise is surprising. Is this due to low standards, an echo chamber effect, non critical listening or just politically expedient in nature, it’s hard to determine. That’s the problem when you are trying too hard to appeal to listeners rather than basing your content on factual informative comment aimed at a critical knowledgable audience. Sorry Conor but nul points from me. Maybe start singing from a different song sheet if you aspire to a more positive review.

Have you decided yet on the form your question should take on the PW forum to measure your level of support yet ? 

I think its a fantastic listen, very enlightening. I don't insist anything. Its my opinion. I have no plans for any question on the form. 

[Konor]

20 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

please note I’m not the only person who will have to foot the bill for all the choke altering regulating not to mention the cartridges and time pattern testing 

I’m ahead of you there Old farrier. I have had my Miroku Teague choked and high power steel proofed and have a wide range of chokes from cylinder to full . Thankfully I can afford it ,many can’t. However there are bucket loads of older side by sides being sold for pennies now so there is the opportunity to buy and then later discard should that become necessary at not much cost. See Holts sealed bids. I’ve two guns going in there in the next auction.

Edited April 26 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

How about setting up a lead versus steel shooting competition 

Basc steel 

pw lead 

PW steel for those members who think it’s better 

obviously Basc won’t have any staff members that haven’t moved away from lead 

That sounds like good day out and informative for all - when you have a venue and dates let me know. We could put the world to rights in the pub afterwards and be nice to put some faces to usernames. 

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Talking about it within an echo chamber is arguably less productive

Is that not what is going on here?

[Konor]

4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think its a fantastic listen, very enlightening. I don't insist anything. Its my opinion. I have no plans for any question on the form. 

Dare I suggest that if you found it very enlightening then your knowledge isn’t as great as you would have us believe.

Sorry I thought you wrote earlier of your interest in a poll on the forum to assess your support I must have misremembered ,in hindsight it doesn’t seem a likely scenario.

2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Talking about it within an echo chamber is arguably less productive

Is that not what is going on here

I don’t think we are echoing each other’s positions unless you are belatedly acknowledging an agreement with my views.
But the context of the statement was the futility in advertising your work promoting shooting on a shooting site I take it that you failed to grasp that.

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think it was about accepting there was conclusive evidence on the impact of lead shot on birds - if you can't admit the problem it makes a solution less likely - we were all in denial up to that point - some still are!

I think youre missing the point, whether the 'evidence' is conclusive or not, is irrelevant.

We could say that burning fossil fuels is conclusive evidence that global temperatures are rising (slightly)
So we need to move away from using fossil fuels, or they will be banned ?
We could say that these tiny temperature rises make bad weather more prevalent, but does it ?

We could say that western governments dont like private firearms ownership, so they will seek to remove those rights over the course of time, but I digress.

No one doubts lead is a toxic to life element, yet there is very little evidence that it causes detrimental effects in normal usage, otherwise every single lead risk would have to be removed from the environment.
Lead exists in nature, its in our soil, our water and air, but the emphasis appears to be on ammunition use, because that kills 2 birds with one stone, it restricts those private firearms users from using the best tool for the job, while saving a few birds that no one actually cares about really.
If they had threatened police and military with a lead ban, something easily achievable  as they control it , then I would be more amenable to the 'reason'
But the main point is this , if you believe that upending shooting sports in this country is a worthwhile price to pay for a few birds poisoned (despite the fact we shoot or wound a massive amount already) or 'a healthy market for game meat' then thats your right to opinion, mine differs somewhat.
What I dont agree with , is the minority opinion being forced on the vast majority, which again, you never put to the test.