welsh1 Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I haven't mentioned BASC. I have posted an update about the Eat Wild lead free register. The very fact that you work for basc and post on here all things basc as their representative would have cause for someone to ask the links basc may have in promoting another organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Maybe just stop posting misinformation about BASC. Then perhaps these threads would be more useful to others. It's not all about you. Could you give me examples from my posts on this thread in the interests of clarity. Correct it's not all about me it's all about you and your inability to support the statements you post on this and perhaps every other thread. There's no free ride on an open forum Conor and private phone calls have no place in open honest discussion only in politics. Edited May 7 by Konor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 7 Author Report Share Posted May 7 3 minutes ago, welsh1 said: The very fact that you work for basc and post on here all things basc as their representative would have cause for someone to ask the links basc may have in promoting another organisation. Why does everything have to be so tribal? This division coupled with our apathy as individuals to get involved is damaging shooting. How many people responded to the HSE lead ammo consultation? How about your good self and other admin get behind campaigns, encouraging all members to get involved, whilst moderating the trolls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 17 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: What do you have to hide? What do you have to hide that you cant just post simple answers to simple questions on open forum ? 12 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Maybe just stop posting misinformation about BASC. Try saying which bits you disagree with, and some factual arguments why, I dont see what the problem is ? 13 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Then perhaps these threads would be more useful to others. Oh these threads are VERY useful to others, trust me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 7 Author Report Share Posted May 7 10 minutes ago, Konor said: Could you give me examples from my posts on this thread in the interests of clarity More or less every time you mention BASC. Just give it a rest. You are ruining this forum for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 15 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: More or less every time you mention BASC. Just give it a rest. You are ruining this forum for everyone. This eat wild thing lets talk about deer do they have to be shot with lead free ammunition to become part of the eat wild thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 9 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: More or less every time you mention BASC. Just give it a rest. You are ruining this forum for everyone. So no examples just a wish that I should be censored so that you have no need to answer pertinent questions. Sorry Conor but accountability is a prerequisite if you are stating that you represent my best interests in your role as "the voice of shooting" I'm not ruining anything for anyone but you are playing a part in ruining sporting shooting for everyone, which includes those rough shooters with family hand me downs and the generations of shooters to come who will inherit the mess that you and BASC will have played a part in creating. Why don't you spend less time on here politicing and more time protecting the interests of the keen, low impact shooters whose appreciation of a varied bag and the camaraderie of a good day out outweigh the interests of those whose main concern is the size of the bag and putting the bill for the day on their expenses account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 22 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Why does everything have to be so tribal? This division coupled with our apathy as individuals to get involved is damaging shooting. How many people responded to the HSE lead ammo consultation? How about your good self and other admin get behind campaigns, encouraging all members to get involved, whilst moderating the trolls? Myself and other admins are here to make sure the forum runs smoothly, we are not here to promote and encourage members we are here to facilitate the smooth running of the site. On the point of trolls, we will act if people break the rules, but we won't act because people ask questions which appear to be valid and the other party doesn't like it, free speech (within the rules) is allowed. I asked about the funding because if basc were funding eat wild then i would consider you to have a bias and people who have a bias tend not to act in the best interests of all. If you are dissapointed that people don't respond to the consultations we let you post on here then maybe you need to look at how basc are presenting them, because it appears basc are not catching the imagination of your average "shooter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 5 hours ago, enfieldspares said: This is 100% the mortal blow to this nonsense that is now being peddled by "Eat Wild" that "game shooting cannot thrive without a market for the birds". It is absolute rot. Well said KONOR. I would say all large big bag shooting be it commercial or non-commercial works does not work on a financial model of needing to actually sell any of the game it shoots. Or if that revenue from selling the now shot bird is factored in it is at a received price of as low as 40p or 50p per bird only. I have in the past been in a modern syndicate where the guns "buy" the season of X number of days as it were. On a number of such we have shot bags of over two hundred birds in a day. As elsewhere beaters, pickers-up, guns took what they wanted. I regularly took home ten birds. What was left went to sale by auction at Melton Mowbray Market a few days later. But the shoot did not depend on that income from the sold shot game. So it did not matter if the whole days bag was given away or sold. Of if when sold it made but 35p a bird after auctioneer's commission. IT DID NOT NEED - NOR DOES ANY OTHER COMMERCIAL SHOOT - NEED TO SELL ANY GAME THAT IS SHOT TO SURVIVE. SELLING DEAD GAME IS NOT ITS BUSINESS MODEL. ITS BUSINESS MODEL IS CHARGING GUNS MORE TO SHOOT BIRDS PUT OVER THEM THAN IT HAS COST THE SHOOT MANAGEMENT TO HAVE THOSE BIRDS IN PLACE TO PUT OVER THE GUNS. It was just the same with hound sports. The business model of a hunt was not based on the number of foxes it killed. Its business model was based on members' subscriptions and followers' "caps" exceeding the cost of the huntsman, the whips, their mounts and second horses and the cost of the other hunt servants and of hounds and the accomodation and stables and kennels associated. BASC and whatever the British Game Alliance calls itself this week needs to realise that some of us have been enjoying this sort of playtime for decades or in some families for well over a century plus in "living memory". My father had his gun which I still shoot with and did so on a couple of days the season just gone bought for him on his twelfth birthday in June 1919. We are not stupid. We know that game shooting does not need "a market for the birds" to survive. It needs only to cover its costs (and there's always enough willing and waiting to pay those monies) and to dispose of the by product of that activity - dead shot birds - in an ethical manner. That ethical manner was once easi!y achieved as what was not taken as grace birds or retained by the estate where it was shot was sold into a market hungry for shot partridge, shot pheasant, shot duck. That market has declined especially for shot pheasant. It is no different to, say, the market for now unfashionable vegetables or for whole milk. For be in no doubt the matter at hand is not of nobody wanting to buy shot partridge but one of nobody wanting to buy shot pheasant. Just as today's market can sell as much asparagus as it can get, and more, such that asparagus now has to be flown in and imported from as far away as South America. Yet in that same market one now struggles to sell swede. So the matter in hand is what to do with unwanted shot pheasant where the demand in the UK is far less than what is shot. It is this which is the problem not whether the bird is shot with lead but whether the market in the UK exists for shot pheasant. Dead partridge sell. Dead pheasant don't. YOU CANNOT BUCK THE MARKET. THE MARKET SETS THE DEMAND AND THE DEMAND SETS THE PRICE. AND IF THE DEMAND IS NOT THERE THE MARKET WILL NOT TAKE THE ITEM AT ANY PRICE BE IT EVEN GIVEN AWAY OR SOLD FOR PENNIES. JUST LIKE THE ROOT VEGETABLE THE SWEDE OR WHOLE MILK. So you either process your product to add value to it (whole milk becomes skimmed or semi skimmed milk) or you find another market OR YOU REDUCE WHAT YOU PRODUCE TO THE AMOUNT THE MARKET REQUIRES. If no your only answer is to export the product you create that cannot be sold in the UK. And therein is the crux of it. Commercial big bag shoots produce more dead pheasant than the UK market requires or will take. And since Brexit if these dead pheasant are shot with lead there is an issue in exporting them to the EU. So the answer is in the hands of the commercial shoots. They either reduce the number of pheasant shot to what the UK market will bear or they...the commercial shoots...stop their paying guns using lead shot. But no. They choose the easy answer which is a call via BASC who they are unfortunately now more and more perceived as being a mouthpiece for big bag commercial shooting for a total ban on the use of lead shot for live quarry shooting across the sport to be imposed on all. Regardless of if those "ALL" never have a problem of ethical disposal of what they...those who make that "ALL"...have shot. So let the commercial shoots get their own house in order and reduce the size of the bags they produce or insist their paying guns use non-lead shot before telling me, through BASC or BGA or CA, how I should run my house! Very good post 😊👍 I think the figures are 7% of the shoots shoot 80% of the birds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 7 Author Report Share Posted May 7 16 minutes ago, welsh1 said: Myself and other admins are here to make sure the forum runs smoothly, we are not here to promote and encourage members we are here to facilitate the smooth running of the site. On the point of trolls, we will act if people break the rules, but we won't act because people ask questions which appear to be valid and the other party doesn't like it, free speech (within the rules) is allowed. I asked about the funding because if basc were funding eat wild then i would consider you to have a bias and people who have a bias tend not to act in the best interests of all. If you are dissapointed that people don't respond to the consultations we let you post on here then maybe you need to look at how basc are presenting them, because it appears basc are not catching the imagination of your average "shooter". Thanks, when the next campaign starts I will get in touch and perhaps we can work together to encourage as many PW members and visitors as possible to engage? 22 minutes ago, Konor said: who will inherit the mess that you and BASC will have played a part in creating. Misinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 Quote Thanks, when the next campaign starts I will get in touch and perhaps we can work together to encourage as many PW members and visitors as possible to engage? Just where was this type of thinking when BASC volunteered a lead free hunting policy? Now you are suggesting working together at the start of a campaign. Previous methodology was to decide in private then announce what you had done - no working together etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 42 minutes ago, welsh1 said: it appears basc are not catching the imagination of your average "shooter". Or indeed their membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 24 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: 45 minutes ago, Konor said: who will inherit the mess that you and BASC will have played a part in creating. Misinformation. No an opinion that you don't share. But it clarifies the misinformation accusations ie misinformation is an opinion you do not share. By calling for a voluntary move away from lead and expressing the view that lead toxicity is so great that it should not be used inland, without any scientific data to back your opinion, you lost the ability to argue for the use of lead shot where it's impact would arguably be negligible hence BASC's and your part in creating the mess that is the lead shot issue. Does that clarify part of the reason for my opinion or is this just more misinformation in your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 1 minute ago, Konor said: No an opinion that you don't share. In Conors mind , his opinions are inalienable facts. Every counter opinion is 'misinformation' Every pertinent question he doesnt like, is 'trolling' and completely unworthy of an answer. Every criticism of BASC makes you an anti. But if you have a phone call with him , every question will be answered, and you will be hypnotised into believing everything he and BASC says. Those lead minefields will then become real.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 7 Author Report Share Posted May 7 1 hour ago, Gordon R said: Just where was this type of thinking when BASC volunteered a lead free hunting policy? Now you are suggesting working together at the start of a campaign. Previous methodology was to decide in private then announce what you had done - no working together etc.. I have been posting about consultations and campaigns for over a decade. This forum was much more active and supportive a decade ago to the situation today and that has nothing to do with lead. 18 hours ago, Graham M said: I can imagine Conor going to work for the AA or the RAC and telling us that we should all be driving electric cars. He would then find a way of informing the media that everyone he knew wanted an electric vehicle and that anyone who didn't want one was somehow misinformed and that they really did want one even thought they didn't..... He would then inform the government that we should all be driving EV's because we all wanted them...........even those that didn't. He would then introduce a "Voluntary" 5 year phasing out period for us all to get rid of our nasty polluting petrol and diesel cars so that we could all change over to very expensive EV's because that's really what we all want............because him and his friends drive them. And when we all told him that we didn't want an EV................he would then tell us that we did because he had evidence that everyone else did. And round and round it all went............................ Trolling post @welsh1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 7 Author Report Share Posted May 7 1 hour ago, Konor said: No an opinion that you don't share. But it clarifies the misinformation accusations ie misinformation is an opinion you do not share. By calling for a voluntary move away from lead and expressing the view that lead toxicity is so great that it should not be used inland, without any scientific data to back your opinion, you lost the ability to argue for the use of lead shot where it's impact would arguably be negligible hence BASC's and your part in creating the mess that is the lead shot issue. Does that clarify part of the reason for my opinion or is this just more misinformation in your opinion. An opinion is when you qualify it as such with ‘I think’ etc. As for the above you simply double down with more misinformation. All on a thread to do with a lead free register. 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: In Conors mind , his opinions are inalienable facts. Every counter opinion is 'misinformation' Every pertinent question he doesnt like, is 'trolling' and completely unworthy of an answer. Every criticism of BASC makes you an anti. But if you have a phone call with him , every question will be answered, and you will be hypnotised into believing everything he and BASC says. Those lead minefields will then become real.... Misinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: An opinion is when you qualify it as such with ‘I think’ etc Every post I make is my opinion and has no necessity to be qualified by first stating I think etc. The nature of the forum is the expression of opinions. I have shown the logical thought process in arriving at that opinion which you choose to ignore as I think it does not suit your political agenda which I think is not in the best interests of the majority of shooters. I think that you are working in the best interests of a minority of shooters and those with a commercial interest in shooting. I think the lead free register that you are promoting is a pathetic attempt to exaggerate the importance of game meat as a by product of commercial shooting. I think my opinion is unencumbered by the necessity to be accountable to my employer and I think your opinion is not and as a consequence you are posting statements which have no scientific evidence to back them and are political in nature. That’s some of what I think. I think your claims of misinformation are akin to Donald Trumps accusations of fake news when he was attempting to avoid scrutiny of his actions. Edited May 7 by Konor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 29 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: you simply double down with more misinformation. Could you address those instances specifically rather than generalise please so that I can dispute your assertions should I feel they are unwarranted 1 hour ago, Konor said: No an opinion that you don't share. But it clarifies the misinformation accusations ie misinformation is an opinion you do not share. By calling for a voluntary move away from lead and expressing the view that lead toxicity is so great that it should not be used inland, without any scientific data to back your opinion, you lost the ability to argue for the use of lead shot where it's impact would arguably be negligible hence BASC's and your part in creating the mess that is the lead shot issue. Does that clarify part of the reason for my opinion or is this just more misinformation in your opinion. Could you please point out the inaccuracies in the above Conor to justify your claims of misinformation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 50 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Trolling post That you seem incapable of countering. I thought it was an amusing resume of your antics in justifying your stance regarding the acceptability to the average shooter of the voluntary move away from the use of lead shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 42 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: This forum was much more active and supportive a decade ago to the situation today So was BASC. 44 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Trolling post AN analogy actually, based on opinion. 43 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Misinformation. Just because you dont agree with it , doesnt make it any more than an opinion, unless you counter with accepted (between both parties) facts. Which reinforces the fact that my statement is true. Just because you keep saying something, doesnt make it a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 59 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Trolling post @welsh1 wolf wolf WOLF! somebody hand connor a mirror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 7 Author Report Share Posted May 7 37 minutes ago, Konor said: Every post I make is my opinion and has no necessity to be qualified by first stating I think etc. The nature of the forum is the expression of opinions. I have shown the logical thought process in arriving at that opinion which you choose to ignore as I think it does not suit your political agenda which I think is not in the best interests of the majority of shooters. I think that you are working in the best interests of a minority of shooters and those with a commercial interest in shooting. I think the lead free register that you are promoting is a pathetic attempt to exaggerate the importance of game meat as a by product of commercial shooting. I think my opinion is unencumbered by the necessity to be accountable to my employer and I think your opinion is not and as a consequence you are posting statements which have no scientific evidence to back them and are political in nature. That’s some of what I think. I think your claims of misinformation are akin to Donald Trumps accusations of fake news when he was attempting to avoid scrutiny of his actions. Thank you for clarifying that and sharing your opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 clangerman - beware, you might be offered a phone call. When someone offers a phone call suggesting it will resolve matters, is that an opinion, trolling or merely daft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted May 7 Author Report Share Posted May 7 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Konor said: Could you address those instances specifically rather than generalise please so that I can dispute your assertions should I feel they are unwarranted Could you please point out the inaccuracies in the above Conor to justify your claims of misinformation Given that you have clarified that what you stated is your opinion rather than a statement of fact, there is nothing for me to add. Edited May 7 by Conor O'Gorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamch Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 Some forum members in this thread should be barred for constant BASC knocking, being generally negative and living in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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