Does having space between shot and crimp in a shotgun catridge make a diffrence on performance

[fin]

I have recently purchased a slab of 18gr 6 hull high pheasant, The absoloute muts nuts for .410. Previously I have not had the problem of rattling catridges ( space between shot and the crimp. Some catridges do not have this gap but a significant amount do. 

Will having this gap have a affect on performance? 

 

Thank you in advance 

Fin. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Welcome to Pigeon Watch.

[wymberley]

Welcome.

By "Previously" and "Some cartridges", do you mean the same make and load or others?

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, fin said:

I have recently purchased a slab of 18gr 6 hull high pheasant, The absoloute muts nuts for .410. Previously I have not had the problem of rattling catridges ( space between shot and the crimp. Some catridges do not have this gap but a significant amount do. 

Will having this gap have a affect on performance? 

 

Thank you in advance 

Fin. 

You’re right they are really good 410 cart’s. I like them a lot. Short answer - no it won’t make any difference. It never has for me anyway. I’ve also had plenty of 12 and 20 bore cart’s which have rattled. 

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, fin said:

 

Will having this gap have a affect on performance? 

 

No perhaps. But it could be a symptom of something not usual. For example a collapsed plastic wad, or in a true fibre wad loading a missing over powder wad. Or in both a short weight of shot loaded. For peace of mind I'd email the manufacturer and quote any batch number you can see on the carton. That way you have their definitive advice of what to do.

My concern from practical experience over forty years is that a "loose" shot payload can (if it is in the left barrel of a side by side) under recoil from a cartridge fired in the right barrel gradually work the crimp open. As the next cartridge fired on the right barrel can cause shot to then come out of the left cartridge which, if then fired, with the gun still in the shoulder and muzzle up, could end trapped between case mouth and barrel wall as the wad attempts to push past when the cartridge is fired.

This is not desirable at all. It may be a nonsense of mine but of the gap between shot load and wad is such that when shaken it imitates a pair of maracas I won't use it. I have three 12 bore Hull Cartridge, plastic case, fibre wad, where the cap is such that the crimp has collapsed inwards to allow a small hole through which single pellets can pass through.

Modern powders require a pressure to burn. A loose shot load can mean that the wad and shot have less initial pressure to overcome the crimp closure and so the powder doesn't reach optimum pressure. This may in extremis mean what some call a "blooper" load or a wad left in the barrel.

Cartridges are cheap. Gun barrels aren't. An email to the manufacturer costs nothing. Time to get the keyboard out and send a correspondence to Hull Cartridge perhaps? Shot that is "loose" is one thing but any sort of definite and clearly obvious actual gap between the top of the shot and the bottom of the wad shouldn't be there. 

Edited December 12 by enfieldspares

[Old farrier]

Yes in my opinion it will make a difference if the a small percentage of the cartridges rattle And the rest don’t something is missing or damaged possibly a crushed wad missing overpowder card or shot missing 

they should be used cautiously or discard them quality control seems to be slightly lacking on a premium (expensive)410 cartridge

[Sweet11-87]

hull cartridge  Q/C has been on the decline for a few years now, the last few slabs of 12 bore ive had have had very messy crimps and a fair few bulging cartridges.  seemed to shoot ok but if the cartridges are un uniform at a glance who knows what the state and weight of components is at.  its as if theyre flogging the machines or theyre worn out.

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Sweet11-87 said:

hull cartridge  Q/C has been on the decline for a few years now, the last few slabs of 12 bore ive had have had very messy crimps and a fair few bulging cartridges.  seemed to shoot ok but if the cartridges are un uniform at a glance who knows what the state and weight of components is at.  its as if theyre flogging the machines or theyre worn out.

They look shocking - never seen them that bad. I have been using Hull cart’s (mainly) for the last 10 years. I hope not to come across any like those. If I do they’re going straight back. 

[fin]

On 12/12/2024 at 17:10, enfieldspares said:

No perhaps. But it could be a symptom of something not usual. For example a collapsed plastic wad, or in a true fibre wad loading a missing over powder wad. Or in both a short weight of shot loaded. For peace of mind I'd email the manufacturer and quote any batch number you can see on the carton. That way you have their definitive advice of what to do.

My concern from practical experience over forty years is that a "loose" shot payload can (if it is in the left barrel of a side by side) under recoil from a cartridge fired in the right barrel gradually work the crimp open. As the next cartridge fired on the right barrel can cause shot to then come out of the left cartridge which, if then fired, with the gun still in the shoulder and muzzle up, could end trapped between case mouth and barrel wall as the wad attempts to push past when the cartridge is fired.

This is not desirable at all. It may be a nonsense of mine but of the gap between shot load and wad is such that when shaken it imitates a pair of maracas I won't use it. I have three 12 bore Hull Cartridge, plastic case, fibre wad, where the cap is such that the crimp has collapsed inwards to allow a small hole through which single pellets can pass through.

Modern powders require a pressure to burn. A loose shot load can mean that the wad and shot have less initial pressure to overcome the crimp closure and so the powder doesn't reach optimum pressure. This may in extremis mean what some call a "blooper" load or a wad left in the barrel.

Cartridges are cheap. Gun barrels aren't. An email to the manufacturer costs nothing. Time to get the keyboard out and send a correspondence to Hull Cartridge perhaps? Shot that is "loose" is one thing but any sort of definite and clearly obvious actual gap between the top of the shot and the bottom of the wad shouldn't be there. 

Thank you for this great response, I will be sending a Email to HULL shortly. Looking at the gap its not just a few odd shot not sat correctly, its a fair size gap. 

 

IMG_6268 2.HEIC

[TIGHTCHOKE]

When working a 12 bore cartridge making machine it is normal to throw the first few and last few from a run if anything goes wrong, like a component running out of something going out of alignment.

It would appear that Hull do not throw anything in the cut open bin and put them in boxes to sell to poor old shooters.   

 

 

Your shells should NEVER have got passed QUALITY CONTROL, if they (Hull) have any body doing that job.

[wymberley]

50 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

When working a 12 bore cartridge making machine it is normal to throw the first few and last few from a run if anything goes wrong, like a component running out of something going out of alignment.

It would appear that Hull do not throw anything in the cut open bin and put them in boxes to sell to poor old shooters.   

 

 

Your shells should NEVER have got passed QUALITY CONTROL, if they (Hull) have any body doing that job.

Does that also apply to a 410? 

[redlew1]

Morning you have been given various suggestions and comments but no one has mentions the obvious, for the cartridge to end up in that state something has either collapsed or is missing components. You need to cut a couple open and weigh and inspect all components, when you discover what is wrong you can go to the manufacturer with a properly presented case.

[wymberley]

17 minutes ago, redlew1 said:

Morning you have been given various suggestions and comments but no one has mentions the obvious, for the cartridge to end up in that state something has either collapsed or is missing components. You need to cut a couple open and weigh and inspect all components, when you discover what is wrong you can go to the manufacturer with a properly presented case.

For the above highlighted bit, shouldn't this initially be an approach to the retailer?