roadkill Posted January 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 I'd have though it unlikely to be QNH/QFE related Lefty, just doesn't happen these days. Later reports have come out of an unusual angle of bank, combined with the fact the emergency services immediately concentrated on the port engine I stick to my earlier call of port engine related problem. Modern planes like this have autoland, however when something like this happens it's a drill and it's just about all manual. How much of that drill is possible and was performed correctly depends entirely on the two pilots and how low they were when the emergency happened. If they had a strong headwind and they lost an engine low enough it would be a reaction call to compensate and get the thing over the threshold - something that they seem to have done very well. My Ex-BA colleague has just told me something quite simular, something about 'Cat 3' runways, pilots and planes? Might mean something to you? A CAT III rwy/landing is an ILS Category, the ILS, Instrument Landing Systems comes in 3 flavours, the best being CAT 3. The rest is copied to give you the actual meaning. * Category I - A precision instrument approach and landing with a decision height not lower than 200 feet (61 m) above touchdown zone elevation and with either a visibility not less than 2,625 feet (800 m) or a runway visual range not less than 1,800 feet (550 m). An aircraft equipped with an Enhanced Flight Vision System may, under certain circumstances, continue an approach to CAT II minimums. [14 CFR Part 91.175 amendment 281] * Category II - Category II operation: A precision instrument approach and landing with a decision height lower than 200 feet (61 m) above touchdown zone elevation but not lower than 100 feet (30 m), and a runway visual range not less than 1,150 feet (350 m). * Category III is further subdivided o Category III A - A precision instrument approach and landing with: + a) a decision height lower than 100 feet (30 m) above touchdown zone elevation, or no decision height; and + a runway visual range not less than 655 feet (200 m). o Category III B - A precision instrument approach and landing with: + a) a decision height lower than 50 feet (15 m) above touchdown zone elevation, or no decision height; and + a runway visual range less than 2,625 feet (800 m) but not less than 165 feet (50 m). o Category III C - A precision instrument approach and landing with no decision height and no runway visual range limitations. A Category III C system is capable of using an aircraft's autopilot to land the aircraft and can also provide guidance along the runway surface. In each case a suitably equipped aircraft and appropriately qualified crew are required. For example, Cat IIIc requires a fail-operational system, Cat I does not. A Head-Up Display which allows the pilot to perform aircraft maneuvers rather than an automatic system is considered as fail-operational. Cat I relies only on altimeter indications for decision height, whereas Cat II and Cat III approaches use radar altimeter to determine decision height.[2] An ILS is required to shut down upon internal detection of a fault condition as mentioned in the monitoring section. With the increasing categories, ILS equipment is required to shut down faster since higher categories require shorter response times. For example, a Cat I localizer must shutdown within 10 seconds of detecting a fault, but a Cat III localizer must shut down in less than 2 seconds.[1] you use Wikipedia to great site for information that takes to long to write down your self :unsure: most of our aircrafts are cat III except for the dc10s we use because the company is to tight to keep them updated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 :unsure: Knew the gear was not locked down and thus decided to put it onthe grass I would rather put it on the grass than the asphalt. If he had both engines but wasn't happy he had all his gear down he wouldn't just throw it on the grass. He would have known for some time if he hadn't got all his gear down and would have declared a full emergency immediately, this would have cleared the runway and scrambled a full compliment of emergency vehicles. This isn't being reported, the press live at heathrow and as soon as a full emergency is declared it gets reported. He would have asked the tower for visual confirmation of the status of his landing gear and gone around, depending on remaining fuel and the technical status of the problem he could have had access to Boeng technical support in the air to try and rectify the problem. If the fuel load allowed he would be diverted to a less busy airport to make any attempted crash landing as safe as possible not only to his passengers but to those on the ground at the airport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Sam Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 :unsure: Knew the gear was not locked down and thus decided to put it onthe grass I would rather put it on the grass than the asphalt. If he had both engines but wasn't happy he had all his gear down he wouldn't just throw it on the grass. He would have known for some time if he hadn't got all his gear down and would have declared a full emergency immediately, this would have cleared the runway and scrambled a full compliment of emergency vehicles. This isn't being reported, the press live at heathrow and as soon as a full emergency is declared it gets reported. He would have asked the tower for visual confirmation of the status of his landing gear and gone around, depending on remaining fuel and the technical status of the problem he could have had access to Boeng technical support in the air to try and rectify the problem. If the fuel load allowed he would be diverted to a less busy airport to make any attempted crash landing as safe as possible not only to his passengers but to those on the ground at the airport. We will find out in due course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadkill Posted January 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 :unsure: Knew the gear was not locked down and thus decided to put it onthe grass I would rather put it on the grass than the asphalt. If he had both engines but wasn't happy he had all his gear down he wouldn't just throw it on the grass. He would have known for some time if he hadn't got all his gear down and would have declared a full emergency immediately, this would have cleared the runway and scrambled a full compliment of emergency vehicles. This isn't being reported, the press live at heathrow and as soon as a full emergency is declared it gets reported. He would have asked the tower for visual confirmation of the status of his landing gear and gone around, depending on remaining fuel and the technical status of the problem he could have had access to Boeng technical support in the air to try and rectify the problem. If the fuel load allowed he would be diverted to a less busy airport to make any attempted crash landing as safe as possible not only to his passengers but to those on the ground at the airport. very well put , have you been in this situation before ? on many occations we have had aircraft fly past the tower to see if the gear is down ... and like you say the three greens would have been on for some time not sure how far they are out before they drop the gear maybe 6 miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 its now been reported from a maintenance worker who spoke to the pilot that he had no power at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Double engine failure, not a lot you can do there :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gully Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Yeah, I'm hearing total power loss from a mate who works for BA at Heathrow. Pilot has 20 yrs experience. Apparently he glided it in! I wonder if he got a round of applause? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 He deserves a medal, would be interesting to see if there are any better pictures emerging or any video of it coming down - to see if the RAT (Ram air turbine) was deployed. Airliners require at least one engine running in order to provide hydraulic pressure to operate the control surfaces. http://meriweather.com/777/over/ramair.html From the pictures I have seen I can't see it deployed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyRS6 Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Jeesus, What a rare one that is. And what skill to get it down safely. Top Job. I think he Reg is G-YMMM I actually flew that to NYC in March. Top Job Pilot and Co-Pilot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 (edited) bet he's going to have a good drink tonight! does sound like a flock of geese or something like that Edited January 17, 2008 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 He deserves a medal, would be interesting to see if there are any better pictures emerging or any video of it coming down - to see if the RAT (Ram air turbine) was deployed. Airliners require at least one engine running in order to provide hydraulic pressure to operate the control surfaces. http://meriweather.com/777/over/ramair.html From the pictures I have seen I can't see it deployed I think they said it had been on BBC news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 If it was then it's extremely likely it was a total power loss. Well done that crew, thats a lot of lives saved there today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 very well put , have you been in this situation before ? Nope, Single engine VFR only for me mate, do you work in aviation? Sounds like you know a thing or two :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyRS6 Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 1st Triple 7 write off as well. Good record Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyRS6 Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Here you go. A most stunning picture taken recently of G-YMMM. This is the last one in the database at Jetphotos. The next 2 are of it at EGLL today. http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6136618&nseq=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadkill Posted January 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 very well put , have you been in this situation before ? Nope, Single engine VFR only for me mate, do you work in aviation? Sounds like you know a thing or two :unsure: i work for a cargo company at east midlands as a load controller / load master ..... we had a lady pilot get her rat out in one of our 757's lol the joke went on for ages they had a total power loss but they did manage to get all of the systems up and running but did lose about 12000 in alt .. they have said that B/A have an extra black box called a sezma which records load more info and that it has been removed and the results should be out tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 If it was then it's extremely likely it was a total power loss. Well done that crew, thats a lot of lives saved there today! pure pure speculation all round in this thread, BUT both engines out? common denomenator is FUEL,so if he is out of fuel why "glide" into heathrow plenty of other places to put down I mean he would have known well before he got there?and surely would be down asap ANYWHERE anyway remember the A330 that had "fuel probs" over the atlantic? pilot glided a dead aircraft into the azores made a fast and heavy landing, but everyone ok (main thing) pilot hailed a hero! actually turned out to be a twit who ignored indication of a fuel leak in ONE engine and opened a X flow valve effectively dumping his fuel, ie in reality he nearly killed everyone, like I said speculation x100 and I bet the anti 3rd runway merchants will be using this in their campaign cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Kd, come on it's an internet forum, speculation is what happens here! Interestingly you decide to make a point about speculation and then speculate yourself :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sussexboy Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 I have just sent the BBC an e-mail about their sloppy reporting. I nearly choked on my fish and chips when I heard their on the spot reporter saying that the Captain had lost control of the aircraft. What an ill informed unprofessional comment. If the crew had lost control the aircraft would have crashed into Hounslow or Feltham or onto the perimeter road. As it was I should say that the crew were very much in control and averted a disaster in the making. I've officially turned into a grumpy old man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEFTY478 Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 I've just spoken to mate that works for BA at LHR. BA have recently had some big problems with Hydrolic systems failure on these aircraft. In fact he said that they had a spate of four, in one month and that was the sort of quantity that they'd expect in a year. He also said that the Engineering Dept wasn't a very 'happy' place at the moment. Sounds like it's gonna get even less happy, soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 I've a mate in maintenance and he's saying ignore eye witness reports, from where they were the plane dropped about 200 feet very fast on its approach, one of their storemen had to be decontaminated after being covered in fuel so that would sort of say it had some on board, so it would seem there may be more to this than has come out so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 And for a little light relief here are some views from the Daily Mail Bulletin Board Let's not rule out pilot error. I have flown from Bristol to Newcastle and that was very bumpy." - Barry Chadwick, Plymouth, UK "He isn't a hero. He didn't risk his life, he had no choice but to do his job. What was he going to do, get out and walk?" - Alexander Macintyre, Yorkshire "It's a miracle, praise the almighty and not the pilot." - Mike Fernandes, Newcastle Tyne "Sounds to me like they ran out of gas - Beijing is a long way away after all. Still, an excellent landing. And what's more, the PC brigade will be able to grumble about him ruining the grass." - Rmj Atkinson, Sheffield, UK "I do hope that British Airways will act quickly to repair the grass divots that the plane created." - Pc Brigade, Slough "Like all airline pilots, he is very good looking" Neighbour Valerie Firminger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Preliminary indications suggest it was engine related and at late finals, ILS landing autoland called for more power and it wasn't coming, so they tried manually and it wasn't there. Miracle nobody was killed, well done the first officer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 The newspapers today are suggesting contaminated fuel ( possibly with water ) and the engines failed 2 miles from the runway. Who wants to bet how long it will be before the "Islamic Terrorists" propaganda starts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missed again Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 bloody hell! well done to the pilot, bet he's feeling proud . there goes his no claims bonus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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