ziplex Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 (edited) I went to the foreshore yesterday morning for a sit down, turned out to be just that as no birds materialised but it was a nice morning none the less! After we got back and had a cuppa we decided to visit the local range and have a pop at clays. All was going well until on the second of two clays I pulled the trigger and nowt happened, can't remember if I heard a click or not to be honest and on breaking the gun the cartridge fired........gun was pointing down and away from all so was safe but it put the wind up me a bit. I was asked by an experienced shot 'what are you doing'! to which I could only reply 'I don't know!, never happened before' (sheepishly I might add). After approx 15 more shots the gun failed to fire again, ( top barrel), this time going off as I lowered it, so safe once more but by this time I was ready to put the gun away. Same chap shouted 'don't do that'! yeah, righty oh then The gun is a Silver Pigeon sport and is relatively new in as much as it's probably only had 300 shells through it, i've tended to use the semi more often than not, and not once has it failed to fire/eject. Any ideas as I found it butt clenching enough to more or less miss everything thereafter! The cartridges were Lyalvale 28grm 7.5's in fibre. Your thoughts? Edited February 3, 2008 by ziplex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I went to the foreshore yesterday morning for a sit down, turned out to be just that as no birds materialised but it was a nice morning none the less! After we got back and had a cuppa we decided to visit the local range and have a pop at clays. All was going well until on the second of two clays I pulled the trigger and nowt happened, can't remember if I heard a click or not to be honest and on breaking the gun the cartridge fired........gun was pointing down and away from all so was safe but it put the wind up me a bit. I was asked by an experienced shot 'what are you doing'! to which I could only reply 'I don't know!, never happened before' (sheepishly I might add). After approx 15 more shots the gun failed to fire again, (bottom barrel), this time going off as I lowered it, so safe once more but by this time I was ready to put the gun away. Same chap shouted 'don't do that'! yeah, righty oh then The gun is a Silver Pigeon sport and is relatively new in as much as it's probably only had 300 shells through it, i've tended to use the semi more often than not, and not once has it failed to fire/eject. Any ideas as I found it butt clenching enough to more or less miss everything thereafter! The cartridges were Lyalvale 28grm 7.5's in fibre. Your thoughts? not a good experience!! Others on here will have a far better knowledge of what it could be but for what it's worth I have heard stories of "slow burning" primers where the cartridge takes a bit of time to fire once the firing pin has hit but I thought that was pretty much a thing of the past. I don't know if it's possible that your firing pin is jamming and not firing as soon as the trigger is pulled? You could try a couple of hundred trigger pulls on snap caps to see if there is any time when the trigger is pulled but the click of the pin on the snap cap is delayed, then you know it's the gun. How old are the cartridges? WGD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caragh Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Hi The firing pin must have hit the primer hard enough on both occasions as in the end the gun went off. So I would tend to think the cartridges are the problem maybe try a different cartridge stroke/make to put your mind at rest or at least prove its the gun. regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I would say cartridges too. They may have got damp and dried out again, or be a faulty batch, hard to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted February 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The cart's were from one of these lockable containers, (as the ones seen on back of lorries etc), the box shows no sign of damp atall, both the outer case and the smaller ones inside. I would be suprised if it was cart's (being Lyalvale), used god knows how many Pigeon Special without problem from the same supplier/stored in same container. We did nip down the farm afterward and tryed to replicate the problem with a range of different cartridges to no avail. I've got 450 of these 7.5's left so i'll maybe use a box next weekend while roost shooting, if anything to keep the birds moving, see if the situation rears it's head again...........in the meantime if anyone else cares to share a thought, please do. Thanks lads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McArthur Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 I can't say what the problem was with your gun but I will say that this proves the truth of the old adage that if the gun, any gun, should have fired just-then. but didn't: keep it pointed down range for a couple of minutes before you do anything else. Misfires can be hangfires. Beware! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandersj89 Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Funny enough I had a hang fire only the other week, and same make of cartridge though different model. http://sportingcountryside.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5154 They do put the willies up you when it happens!!!! Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 i would have the gun checked by a gun smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 I would try different shells. I had the same experience on Sunday and so did my son. He was using a Browning GTi and I was using a Browning Ultra XT. Both if us were using Eley Blues from the same batch. Didn't fire immediately, but just as we were thinking of pulling the gun down from our shoulder they went off. If a shell doesn't fire immediately, I assume it could still go off and point it somewhere safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy W Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) I would try different shells. I had the same experience on Sunday and so did my son. He was using a Browning GTi and I was using a Browning Ultra XT. Both if us were using Eley Blues from the same batch. Didn't fire immediately, but just as we were thinking of pulling the gun down from our shoulder they went off. If a shell doesn't fire immediately, I assume it could still go off and point it somewhere safe. That happened to me twice yesterday Gordon with Eley firsts, first barrel fired, on the second barrel the trigger felt hard as if it the inertia of the first shot had not set the second trigger then just as I was taking the stock out of my shoulder, gun facing down the stand it went off, I have had 5 of these mainly with Lyvale carts but twice yesterday with eley first, is it poor quality cheap cartridges I wonder. Edited February 4, 2008 by Andy W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 I know it's only happened twice, but were both hangfires on the same barrel?, what do the struck primers look like, is there any difference between the 'dent' on the primer from top and bottom barrels? May be try a pair of fired cases and see how much the primer is deforming ( a certain amount will push back out as the powder burns and creates pressure ), or try a block of wood against the action. Probably just duff primers, but best to check Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted February 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 I'm sorry to say i'm glad it isn't just me, clays are a newish thing for me and I recieved a few sideways glances I could of done without, confidence went out the window a bit! Seems the general idea points to carts but as mossy says a check may be in order. At least a lesson has been learned, awful to think someone could swing around looking for an answer tho'. If it happens again I won't be best pleased, but as said i'll put a box or two through the semi this weekend in the safety of a large wood, see what occurs and report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted February 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 I know it's only happened twice, but were both hangfires on the same barrel?, what do the struck primers look like, is there any difference between the 'dent' on the primer from top and bottom barrels? May be try a pair of fired cases and see how much the primer is deforming ( a certain amount will push back out as the powder burns and creates pressure ), or try a block of wood against the action. Probably just duff primers, but best to check Sorry paul, read after I posted back, yes same barrel if I recall right, wasn't in the mood to check primers at the time tho', , thanks for the advice. We'll see what happens on the next batch, if I still get the odd problem it almost cetainly points to the carts I guess rather than the gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caragh Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 I remember a mate having aa similar problem with his Zoli only a certain brand of cartridge caused a problem. Anyhow he asked an old gunsmith for advice down at the clay shoot. he proceeded to sit a coin on the breech face pulled the trigger when the coin shot up and smacked the ceiling very loudly he pronounced it as ok regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby t Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 i had trouble with lyalvale carts. the primer was sitting slightly low and the pins in my gun were slightly worn and i was only getting half a strike on those carts. gunsmith checked the strength of teh springs and teh pins by firing the pins without the barrel attached but with a 1p piece sitting over the pin.its actually surprising how high it goes. then check it compared to the other barrel as a rough idea. the penny went about 12ft up when i tested it and less on the barrel i was having trouble with. just an idea for you to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I know it's only happened twice, but were both hangfires on the same barrel?, what do the struck primers look like, is there any difference between the 'dent' on the primer from top and bottom barrels? May be try a pair of fired cases and see how much the primer is deforming ( a certain amount will push back out as the powder burns and creates pressure ), or try a block of wood against the action. Probably just duff primers, but best to check Sorry paul, read after I posted back, yes same barrel if I recall right, wasn't in the mood to check primers at the time tho', , thanks for the advice. We'll see what happens on the next batch, if I still get the odd problem it almost cetainly points to the carts I guess rather than the gun. If it continues to happen on the same barrel more likely to be the springs or pin length Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sussexboy Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 (edited) This just goes to show the importance of keeping your gun pointing in the air down range after a failure to fire. This must be held for at least 30 secs. Out of interest, how long was it between pulling the trigger and the cartridge going off? Years ago when I first started clay shooting at an informal club a newby had a misfire and turned round to us to ask what to do. We couldn't answer as we were too busy chewing mud. He never came again. Edited February 11, 2008 by Sussexboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheene7 Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I would try different shells. I had the same experience on Sunday and so did my son. He was using a Browning GTi and I was using a Browning Ultra XT. Both if us were using Eley Blues from the same batch. Didn't fire immediately, but just as we were thinking of pulling the gun down from our shoulder they went off. If a shell doesn't fire immediately, I assume it could still go off and point it somewhere safe. That happened to me twice yesterday Gordon with Eley firsts, first barrel fired, on the second barrel the trigger felt hard as if it the inertia of the first shot had not set the second trigger then just as I was taking the stock out of my shoulder, gun facing down the stand it went off, I have had 5 of these mainly with Lyvale carts but twice yesterday with eley first, is it poor quality cheap cartridges I wonder. I had 2 Eley firsts do exactly the same thing at a clayshoot in Leek last week. It's certainly a brown trouser moment ,when the gun goes off as your bringing it down from your shoulder.Plus everybody looks at you as if your an imbecile I was blaming the gun, then thought it may be the gloves I was wearing ,not giving me the feel on the trigger. Makes me wonder now if I've got a bad batch of cartridges . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I know it's only happened twice, but were both hangfires on the same barrel?, what do the struck primers look like, is there any difference between the 'dent' on the primer from top and bottom barrels? May be try a pair of fired cases and see how much the primer is deforming ( a certain amount will push back out as the powder burns and creates pressure ), or try a block of wood against the action. Probably just duff primers, but best to check Sorry paul, read after I posted back, yes same barrel if I recall right, wasn't in the mood to check primers at the time tho', , thanks for the advice. We'll see what happens on the next batch, if I still get the odd problem it almost cetainly points to the carts I guess rather than the gun. your right its not the gun its the shells, as you are aware the "rule of thumb" point downrange, dont break the gun for a full 30 econds, in your case its very apparent to follow that rule, screw the next guy who tells you to hurry up. point 1 take the shell box there is a skew number, this refers to the manufacturers batch and quality control, if possible keep the shell cases that are causing the problem with the box get in touch with the company, they are very interested in your feed back as an end user, any time this has happened to me or guys i shoot with we follow this rule, not just to get a free box of shells but to add to the quality control of the product, when you look at the volume of shotshells out there the number of failures is comparativley small, none the less the one thats in your gun is very important to you right, make them aware of it. the main cause is a blocked or porley vented pilot hole in the primer, this causes the slow burn until enough burn is generated to ingnite the main powder charge. as before caution is the order of the day. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted February 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Advice taken on board Martin, not been since but will fire the next few cart's with a little trepidation! I was to try a few of them when roost shooting the weekend but the birds were very high so they stayed in the bag in favour of a heavier load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Cartridge powder absorbs moisture from the air - so its neither the brand, nor what type of storage it was in - its that the powder has taken in moisture and become slow burning. Humidity is the cause, and the only solution is controlled storage. You can "dry out" cartridges, but NOT in the microwave, please! Just a sunny warm spot, or a centrally heated room - just a reversal of the process that has let moisture in on a cold night. Damp powder is typified by sawdust like deposits left around the action, and dirtier than usual barrels. This is unburnt powder. Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traztaz Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 A word of caution here that is very pertinant!!If you experience a slowburn/hangfire as said before wait a full 30 secs with the gun pointing in a safe direction(and in the shoulder!). When you come to break the gun DO NOT whatever you do break it in a manner that you or any bystander is looking directly into the breach to see what the naughty cart. is doing because if you experience full burn in that moment the gun will discharge bi-directionally, resulting in the cart. case exiting just as fast as the shot is but out of the breach , YOU DEFINATLY DO NOT WANT TO BE LOOKING STRAIGHT IN THERE AT THIS POINT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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