wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Absolutely, I can regurlarly put a 7.62 bullet throught the bull at 1000 yards but would I take a shot at an animal at that range? No is the answer. Now I will not claim to know the energy of a 155gr 7.62mm bullet after 1000 yards but I wouldn't wnat to be hit by it. That doesn't make it right, just because the bullet has the energy to kill at that distance doesn't mean you should go ahead and do it. so would you not shoot an animal at 300m then? IMO a good gun with a good shooter getting under MOA or better can ethically shoot a rabbit at 300m. You would know better than me about groupings I'm sure, but the world record for a 5 shot group at 600m is 1", which is 0.5" at 300m (I think?). Now of course I doubt that sniperfox is the world's best shot, but getting sub MOA is not VERY difficult, so I don't think a 2-3" group at 300m is out of the question. Is that type of grouping ethically acceptable for shooting rabbit? IMO, definitely yes. I doubt the average shooter here could better that at 80m from standing, and I bet you wouldn't complain about that sort of shot. So assuming that the accuracy is good enough, it comes down the energy, and as I said earlier, I think that is also sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 so would you not shoot an animal at 300m then? IMO a good gun with a good shooter getting under MOA or better can ethically shoot a rabbit at 300m. But we are not talking about a 155gr 7.62 at 300 yards, we are talking about a 17gr .17HMR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 But we are not talking about a 155gr 7.62 at 300 yards, we are talking about a 17gr .17HMR. but we've established that it does have enough energy at that distance, unless you also think shooting with an airgun is also irresponsible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 You would know better than me about groupings I'm sure, but the world record for a 5 shot group at 600m is 1", which is 0.5" at 300m (I think?). Now of course I doubt that sniperfox is the world's best shot, but getting sub MOA is not VERY difficult, so I don't think a 2-3" group at 300m is out of the question. I can see your point WB, but the above wouldn't be with a HMR 17, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I can see your point WB, but the above wouldn't be with a HMR 17, you're correct, I think it was a 6mmBR. But I have allowed for a group 4-6 times bigger than that which I think is still ethical. And there are certainly 17HMR rifles capable of less than MOA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I would like to witness anybody getting a group of less than 12" with an HMR at 300 yards. I think it was dead eye ive at bisley a couple of years back shooting his at 200 yards and although it was a fairly calm day I doubt that the group was much tighter that 12". The .17 is a capable round but it has its limitations as does any of them. A 306 yard rabbit shot is theoretically possible but in practice it is more luck than judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I would like to witness anybody getting a group of less than 12" with an HMR at 300 yards. I think it was dead eye ive at bisley a couple of years back shooting his at 200 yards and although it was a fairly calm day I doubt that the group was much tighter that 12". The .17 is a capable round but it has its limitations as does any of them. A 306 yard rabbit shot is theoretically possible but in practice it is more luck than judgement. so you think a 6" group at 100m is good? i assume you don't have much experience shooting these guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 so you think a 6" group at 100m is good? i assume you don't have much experience shooting these guns? Thats not what the man said now is it, quite frankly you are putting yourself up for ridicule, most if not all Rifle men can get sub one inch groups at 100 yards with the HMR (in the field) and that is of course the sort of distance they perform best at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Are you completely stupid? Of course 6" at 100 yards is not good. but because you can shoot sub MOA at 100 yards does not mean it carries on to what ever distance you like. a hell of a lot more factors come into play at greater ranges. My best group I have ever shot was 8 shots under 3" at 500 yards with a 7.62 target rifle. That doesn't mean that it would be under 6" at 1000 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) ok, so spell out for a dunce like me what happens between 100-200 yards which makes a 17hmr group go from under 1 inch to 12. Yes I am aware of a thing called wind, but let's assume it is a calm evening with none - which does happen. And let's also remember that the 17gr doesn't go subsonic until about 275 yards downrange. And please cut out the insults, we are probably all adults here and should be able to have a debate without resorting to them Edited March 2, 2009 by wannabefisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) I can regurlarly put a 7.62 bullet throught the bull at 1000 yards but would I take a shot at an animal at that range? No is the answer. Now I will not claim to know the energy of a 155gr 7.62mm bullet after 1000 yards but I wouldn't wnat to be hit by it. About 108 Ft/lbs. For a .17HMR (17grn) at 300 Yards, it's 38.33Ft/lbs. More than enough to kill a rabbit. However at 300 Yards, a .22LR sub (40 Grn) bullet will have 45.44 Ft/lbs, so you might not be shooting the right gun for your long range shots The only difference is that the .17HMR bullet will get to its target in half a second, compared to the full second it'll take for the .22lr. EDIT: I'm not saying that this shot should be taken. I'm just giving the numbers, if they haven't already been put down. Edited March 2, 2009 by harfordwmj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Head shot on a mole at 978 yards . But must admit it was a lucky shot as the round bounced around a bit from a number of fence posts ,bounced off 3 tractors and a beet harvester ,crossed two main roads . Did the business in the end . Harnser . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 You have named it in one. Wind, atmospheric conditions the fact that the bullet has slowed down a lot more and will be more susceptible to any variation in wind or other outside forces. variation in velocity to begin with. If everything was always in a perfect world we would never miss anything regardless of range, conditions or anything else you can think of. even in laboratory conditions at Eley with a match grade target barrel in a proper jig at 50Mtrs the variation can be quite severe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 ok, so spell out for a dunce like me what happens between 100-200 yards which makes a 17hmr group go from under 1 inch to 12. Yes I am aware of a thing called wind, but let's assume it is a calm evening with none - which does happen. And let's also remember that the 17gr doesn't go subsonic until about 275 yards downrange. And please cut out the insults, we are probably all adults here and should be able to have a debate without resorting to them Its partly to do with bullet Stability which decreases with distance the longer the target the more chance of missing, if that helps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 About 108 Ft/lbs. For a .17HMR (17grn) at 300 Yards, it's 38.33Ft/lbs. More than enough to kill a rabbit. However at 300 Yards, a .22LR sub (40 Grn) bullet will have 45.44 Ft/lbs, so you might not be shooting the right gun for your long range shots The only difference is that the .17HMR bullet will get to its target in half a second, compared to the full second it'll take for the .22lr. EDIT: I'm not saying that this shot should be taken. I'm just giving the numbers, if they haven't already been put down. how many yards of holdover is it though with the .22lr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) I'm not following. Assuming it is not flawed to say that a gun/ammo combination can shoot 1 MOA accuracy, then this takes into account variation in velocity, shooter wobble, barrel harmonics etc etc. MOA means (unless someone wants to correct me) that the groups will be 1" at 100m, 2" at 200m. Now if this is true, then the only thing which will affect the bullet more as it goes downrange is wind. And there is such a thing as a totally still day... Now maybe you would like to tell me I am forgetting the Coriolis effect? Edited March 2, 2009 by wannabefisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 My personal best shot was a crow at 208 yards. I was using my Burris LaserScope with a 100 yard zero and I happened to spot the crow and range it at 208 yards. Ideal volunteer I thought for the second dot of the ballistic plex at full mag. The shot was straight into strong wind and I hit it about 2" lower than my POA. I'd say the extra 8 yards and strong wind would account for that 2". The first plex dot is very consistent for a 150 yard bunny shot. As above, 208 yards. The quote is from a thread on the same topic last June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 how many yards of holdover is it though with the .22lr 51.991 Inches Easy, I say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I'm not following. Assuming it is not flawed to say that a gun/ammo combination can shoot 1 MOA accuracy, then this takes into account variation in velocity, shooter wobble, barrel harmonics etc etc. MOA means (unless someone wants to correct me) that the groups will be 1" at 100m, 2" at 200m. Now if this is true, then the only thing which will affect the bullet more as it goes downrange is wind. And there is such a thing as a totally still day... Now maybe you would like to tell me I am forgetting the Coriolis effect? OK so let's assume that there is no variation in velocity, absolutely no wind or any other variation in atmospherics. the rifle barrel is 100% absolutely perfectly still on aim and there is absolutely no variation in anything absolutely whatsoever in any shape or form then maybe just maybe you will get a shot on shot group. How often does this happen? and does it sound realistic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) OK so let's assume that there is no variation in velocity, absolutely no wind or any other variation in atmospherics. the rifle barrel is 100% absolutely perfectly still on aim and there is absolutely no variation in anything absolutely whatsoever in any shape or form then maybe just maybe you will get a shot on shot group. How often does this happen? and does it sound realistic? sorry but I think you are being petulant now. the ONLY thing I said let's assume does not vary is the wind, because there are days when that happens. Don't try and put words into my mouth, I never said any of those other things you just mentioned. the vast majority of factors affecting accuracy increase in a linear fashion with distance (except wind), so 1" at 100m DOES mean 2" at 200m Edited March 2, 2009 by wannabefisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) How often does this happen? and does it sound realistic? Just to back this up. A 1mph wind over 300 yards for a 17HMR will knock it off by 1.5in. A 5mph " " " " by 7.3in. A 10mph " " " " by 14.6in. This is wind coming from the right at 90 degrees. You're never going to get a consistent wind over that distance, so you're guessing what to compensate for, even if you know what the wind speed is at the muzzle. Edited March 2, 2009 by harfordwmj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Have you ever seen a Ballistic CURVE. There is nothing linear about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Have you ever seen a Ballistic CURVE. There is nothing linear about it. LOL! OK, you have to realise that trajectory and accuracy are COMPLETELY unrelated. Say if you do not, and I will try to explain it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Now maybe you would like to tell me I am forgetting the Coriolis effect? The only people who ever mention that play too much CoD4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabefisher Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 The only people who ever mention that play too much CoD4 ive never been able to find definitive evidence of whether coriolis is actually a measurable effect on a bullet. My logic tells me not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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