Wookie Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Don't worry about us posting ******** results for the long range stuff. This _will_ be impartial and we _will_ post the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 we'd like to see 150, 200, and 250 hopefully with someone other than stevie wonder pulling the trigger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 (edited) just as long as you don't post a load of bullocks results of shots at 300 yards, As I said extrapulate your logic and you end up shooting pigeons sitting in your decoy pattern with your 12 bore. I like to think our rabbit shooting platform is pretty good and bags on the L200 roof with a decent seat is a bit like bench rest shooting but I'd happily sit there shooting a rabbit sized target at 150 yards all day long theres no extrapulation to be made we arnt talking about 12 bores or Pigeons or anything else for that matter, we are talking about rabbits and hmr and whats sensible range, that may well be 150 for you when you cant get round soft fields and if you can do it well done but 200 plus is pushing things IMHO, Any chance you can join us? ps any chance of a pic of your setup in the truck sounds comfy Edited April 3, 2009 by pavman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I think we're reaching towards an agreement, 200 is on the edge of limits but it started off as BB said that over 100 was reckless. I'll get some pics up of the truck set up as it works really well, basically 2 scaffold poles sit over the edge of the load bed of the pickup with 2 seats from a suzuki SJ welded to them. you sit at just the right level that you can use a bag or short bipod on the cab top. either one lamps and one shoots from the back or one shooter on the back and the driver lamps. Perk of that is that the lamp is well in front of the scope so no glare issues. Sadly I'm labouring for my bricklayer on my extension this weekend otherwise would have loved to pop up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Good luck lads, forecast looks ok'ish for Suffolk tomorrow. Are you taking a 16" thick bit of wood with you as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Hmmmm. My patch looks to be nice, but with a 10mph wind coming from the west. If Google Earth is to be believed, that means we may have a bit of a L-R cross wind. No rain though, which is nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I think we're reaching towards an agreement, 200 is on the edge of limits but it started off as BB said that over 100 was reckless. I am trying to be diplomatic my thougts remain for mr avg Rifle in field conditions with zero at 100 that 100 plus or minus a bit is spot on and up to 150 with 3 inch hold over shot from a good stance/truck/platform confident man at the blunt end little wind etc will work as even a body shot is gonna do the biz. As for being on the eadge of limits thats where i beg to differ as I dont wish to go there and plz accept that its based on my Ethic, what you do is for you alone but can we agree that telling newbies 208 or whatever we had a while back is not the best idea to get him started on the HMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 300 yards with a HMR pales into insignificance when compared to the antics of our very own PW Super-Sniper Japrite. Can anyone top that? ZB Brilliant . . . . . . . . . I wonder if he ever did realise that his scope was on the wrong way round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Well, that was interesting to say the least. Wookie has been jiffed to put the pics etc up later, and I'm not going to steal his thunder and give away the results... I will say this though, Wookie makes a damn fine bacon and egg roll ZB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 (edited) Aw shucks! Well, I guess there are worse things to be know for, and they were fresh eggs from our chickens too! Well, I've got the photos from my camera downloaded now and I am just waiting for the photos that Pav took on his Jesus phone (the tart). However, I feel it only fair to post this wonderful shot of the famous Pavman showing his opinion of Zapp's shooting, which wasn't as bad as he said it was... Edit was silly because imageshack won't let me resize the bloody thing down from 4000x3000! Edited April 4, 2009 by Wookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Baited breath and all that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 I have ran out of baited breath.Did the myth busters team shoot each other or did they all miss the paper all together so there is nothing to report ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 No, we have plenty to report, but I am waiting for Pav's photos and I have just finished a 10k road race, so I am not really ready to spend an hour sorting photos and writing a full report. Patience young man... Patience. I'll be on the case tomorrow morning when I get to work. Well, it beats the normal Monday morning grind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted April 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) I have ran out of baited breath.Did the myth busters team shoot each other or did they all miss the paper all together so there is nothing to report ? Theres plenty, and it was damm good fun to boot, I will be sending the pics off my phone monday and wookie can do the report cause I cant work out how to make myself look better and I hope wookie can Edited April 6, 2009 by pavman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 (edited) Right, the photographs are in and now is the time that everyone has been waiting for. Background: The test was carried out on my permission (thanks to the farmer!) on Saturday morning. The weather was nice (sun, light westerly wind about 10mph or so) and the area used for the test was chosen with the wind in mind to minimise the cross-wind. As luck would have it, the range we had between the car and the ditch we were using as a backstop was 316m as measured by Pav's laser rangefinder. I would also like to point out that all distances in this test were measured using the 'laser', so we have to assume that they are accurate. Looking back to where the targets were to be, it was a long way away. Ok, so first order of business was to check zero on our three rifles (Pav's Sako Quad, Zapp's CZ452 American and my CZ452 Varmint). To make sure that things were as consistent as possible for the 100m zeroing, Pav and Zapp used Pav's stunning shooting bench, whilst I used the ground and my bipod. As soon as we had each shot a 5 round group, we then made adjustments as we saw fit to our zero and re-shot a group to verify that things were working well with the guns. As you can see from the first set of groups, we were having slight issues with the wind at 100m and some windage was needed to compensate for this. The second set of shots showed that there was nothing wrong with the guns and that the shooters were getting more used to the wind. Ok, so nothing wrong with us at 100m. We then got some proper rabbit size targets and added "shoot n see" patches to the kill area, then taped them to the target board and moved them out to 150m. The car was moved to provide a realistic "I've just come round a corner and have seen a rabbit on my permission" shot, and Pav and Zapp elected to shoot from the wing mirror, whilst I decided to shoot prone off the bipod, using a beanbag under the stock to act as the control. We all settled down to shoot, taking it in turns to shoot our five round groups at our targets. We all made our own decision on where to aim for the "kill" zone (I chose to aim dead on). As you can see from the results, Some holdover was required (Point Blank says about 1.6" at 150yards), so my group was low of center, but was still a nice, consistent group. Xapp's group was slightly larger, but generally in the middle of the target area. Pav's was larger again and actually had several shots miss the "rabbit" part of the target. He did at least get one shot in the 1.5" "shoot n see". Whatever way you look at this, group sizes were distinctly larger than at 100m and the shots were sufficiently away from the kill area to make a definite kill uncertain. Ok, so now out to 200m. It's a long way to the targets now and this photo shows just how far it is. Note that my camera is zoomed as far as it can go. We're also getting some heat haze at this point, so seeing the target clearly is getting more difficult. Same drill as at 150m. Five round group with holdover from your designated shooting position. We'd marked up/ringed the existing 150m holes on the targets and I'd replaced the SnC's so we could get instant feedback on positive hits. Point Blank says I need about 5" of holdover to maintain zero, so I'd adjusted my point of aim to compensate for that. Pav and Zapp were doing the same with their shots, but from Pav's crib card. For some reason Pav took a picture of his and Zapp's 200m shots, but not mine. That's not a problem though as I can clearly remember my group being larger than the 150m group (about 4") and in roughly the same area as the 150m group proving that, if nothing else, I was still not giving it enough holdover. As you can see from the pictures below, both Pav and Zapp were struggling to get a decent group on the paper, although Zapp put in a nice 4" group, but low and well to the left of the kill. Pav's group was larger and, for some reason, well to the right of the kill zone. He did, however, get a shot damn near in the bull. All shots at 200m are marked with a *... So, 300m it was. It's a long way as this photo will show. Can you see the targets? Can you tell it's a rabbit? Point Blank is now telling me that I need about 18-20" of holdover and so I am aiming well above the target now. In fact, I have run out of dots on my Varmint II and am using the start of the lower vertical post as my aiming mark. Hardly technical I'll admit. It's also impossible to make out the target as a rabbit through the haze from my slot prone on the track. I can see a grey blur and that's it. I think Pav and Zapp can see it better though. As before, Pav's using his own holdover crib sheet, so is holding over more than me. The shots go out and we trundle down to have a look at what we have done. It takes a while to get to the targets now and when we get there we see that Pav has actually managed to land a shot on the SnC. Mind you, his "group" is over a foot in size and the other shots are below and above the rabbit. Neither Zapp or I could find any holes in our cards, or any strikes in the earth near the board, so we have no idea where our fall of shot was. And the result of the experiment? Well, shooting is fun when you have mates about and it was good to get out on such a lovely day. But, the results of our test left us in no doubt that shooting at live quarry at extreme range is not for us. First and foremost, you would be lucky to see a rabbit at that sort of range. Assuming you did, you would have to judge holdover in the order of half a meter or more to get a shot on target. You'd also be relying on very little breeze and a rock solid shooting platform to try and reduce the size of your group to something that would hit the kill zone. Even the light breeze we had was having a noticeable effect on our shot placement, so a still day would be ideal/necessary to close up the group size. I'll let Zapp and Pav comment further, but my opinion is that to get a rabbit at that range is just luck. There are too many variables that could throw your shot off target and lead to a wound. I'll stick to shooting out to about 150 I think. I know that I can accurately put down an inch and a half group at that range and I'm comfortable with that. Edited April 6, 2009 by Wookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leaseone Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Leopold 6.5 x20LR with a thin X hair, but I still would not shoot Bunny @ 300mtrs 200 maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 (edited) Well done lad's for giving it a go.Did pav deliberately miss at 150 to proove a point While the other 2 are 4 out of 5 kills. The results are what i thought they would be for 300 yards but i did think they would be a bit better for 200.It would have been interesting to see where the shots ended up at 300 range.Maybe a large piece of board with the target 3/4 of the way up it would have shown the drop. Again well done. Edited April 6, 2009 by Blackbart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 What scopes are on the rifles ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted April 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 (edited) Well done lad's for giving it a go.Did pav deliberately miss at 150 to proove a point While the other 2 are 4 out of 5 kills.The results are what i thought they would be for 300 yards but i did think they would be a bit better for 200.It would have been interesting to see where the shots ended up at 300 range.Maybe a large piece of board with the target 3/4 of the way up it would have shown the drop. Again well done. What scopes are on the rifles ? My scope is a Simmons 6-24X44, the wind was a times quite strong and it depended when you stepped up to take your go, which is just what field testing is about. real conditions real shooting, I was more than happy to get the results I did and hitting a A4 sheet with all 5 at 300 is no easy ask Zapp had no mil dots on his scope so his shots are all the more of credit. Wookie gave us a comparison by going off the bipod, again good results and sorry i seemed to have errr lost the pic of the cracking group he made at 200 None of us re set zero it was all off 100 set up and hold over for elevation and windage, oh look theres a bunny, ****** its at 200 I am zero at 100 I have 5 mildots and at 220ish I am out and my card said 36 inch of hold over for 300 and two right for wind its a guessing job pure and simple. I was still low at that on 3 out of 5 and the good hit was more like luck! I think we are all happy with the result. It just re affirms my thought that 150 is a good limit unless you are better than most Well done Wookie great report, and at least we got out their and had a go Edited April 6, 2009 by pavman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 That is indeed interesting reading. It just proves my point that if you want to shoot 306-yard rabbits, you should pick the right tool for the job. And that tool is a centrefire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Great job on the write up Wookie Shame the works comp wont let me view the pics though - will have to wait till I get home. All I have to add really is that IMHO 150 is about right as a maximum, 200 if you are a VERY good shot and have a perfectly flat calm day, but I wont be trying it. 300 with an HMR is just insane. There are variables over that distance with this tiny round that you just cant compensate for with either skill or chart. I'm not saying that nobody has ever killed a rabbit at 300 with a HMR, but I would be willing to bet that they couldnt whack a target out at 300m and put in consistent "kill area" sized groups at that range. Consistent accuracy is the key. Once you cant achieve it then you are shooting beyond your ability in whatever the conditions, and if you are doing that then you are just taking potshots at live quarry. Anyway, thats my tuppence worth. For BB, my scope is a Simmons 6-18x40 Cheers for a great morning Wookie and Pav ZB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 That's great write up thanks for that Wookie, certainly confirmed a few things - sounded like a decent day out too. What is the diameter of the rabbit target, the orange bit? ..and were the bacon rolls any good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 ..and were the bacon rolls any good? Ohhhh yes..... ZB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 (edited) I have been informed that the bacon rolls were indeed good. They actually turned into bacon and egg muffins though... I'll have to get my tape measure out, but the rabbit targets were apparently "life size", so call it about a foot square on the paper with a 1" ill zone that I covered up with the Shoot n' See thing. We used two sizes of those, the first (2") were used at the shorter ranges (150 and 200m) and the larger (3") were used at the longer range (300m). Not only did they mean we had something large to aim at, but they provided immediate visual feedback of a hit, turning dayglo yellow around the hit. Oh yes, my scope is a Hawke Varmint II 6-22x44 Mildot Edited April 6, 2009 by Wookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Any comment from our learned friend, sniperfox36? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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