Gordon R Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Viking - you describe him as a "gob""""e". Your word not mine. If you trust him to be sensible good luck. You are evading the real issue - Are you a responsible person? If you don't report him or get him to destroy the weapon - in my book you are not. End of chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scifiden Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Jesus, the guy asked for advice about the legality of owning a de-activated sawn-off shotgun not for everybody to lynch his friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 if you don't report him What, exactly, do you propose viking reports him for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 You have someone who wants a sawn off - for what purpose? I would trot along and ask what the score was. If it is all above board - no problem. Seriously - walk in to a Police Station and say your mate has a sawn off - but it is de-activated - does anyone think the Police will say - no problem. I worry about the state of mind of someone who wants a sawn off to see what it looks like. Never heard of imagination. Forget any debate - just go along and test the water. Post the findings later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 gordon, sorry mate but you talk ****, your just argumentative and cant even explain yourself, and just cos i think he talks **** doesnt mean he is a law breaking idiot who is lighly to wander the sterrts with a deact sawn off, so fair dos as far as your conceren end of chat, jessus, thanks scifi and alex for some sense, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Viking - it is about time you grew up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Seriously - walk in to a Police Station and say your mate has a sawn off - but it is de-activated - does anyone think the Police will say - no problem I doubt they can say anything else but....they are legal, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 You have someone who wants a sawn off - for what purpose? I would trot along and ask what the score was. If it is all above board - no problem. Seriously - walk in to a Police Station and say your mate has a sawn off - but it is de-activated - does anyone think the Police will say - no problem. I worry about the state of mind of someone who wants a sawn off to see what it looks like. Never heard of imagination. Forget any debate - just go along and test the water. Post the findings later. We have established that the object itself is not illegal. We have established that viking has no reason to believe his 'friend' is going to use it to do anything illegal. So, why on earth should he go to the police? What you are proposing is no different to the busy bodies who see us out shooting and decide to 'trot along' to the police station to report a madman with a gun. In fact, what you are proposing is worse, because unlike the busy bodies who genuinely think that shooting pigeons is a crime in progress, we know that possessing a deactivated shotgun isn't illegal. Furthermore, demanding answers to questions such as: Why does he want a deactivated sawn off? Why do people collect guns? Why do target shooters need military style AR15's? Why does anyone 'like' shooting guns? Is a road to misery for all of us. Answer: Because it's legal, we like it and in this country if it's legal then we are free to do it and long may it continue to be so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Viking - it is about time you grew up. how do you work that out mate, im just simly after advise, your the one being strange, by your own advise is like me going into a police station and saying gordon r has shotguns, can you go round and make sure there all on his cert, as said there LEGAL, the only think he could be pulled on is if he has done it himself then it may not be in proof, that to is not ILEGAL, anyway you said end of chat, so lets see if you can end your coments on this topic, my bet is you cant, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rarms Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 How is it that on a shooting forum, there are only a couple of people who haven't jumped on the 'ban it' band wagon. If its legal, which it sounds like it is then whats the problem? If he wants to stand in front of the mirror acting out scenes from Guy Richie films, who cares? There are a hell of a lot worse things happening in the world! I have some de-act guns, I have some real guns. They are all legal. If I want to spend my money on a welded up piece of history then thats my business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 End of debate. Perhaps you should devote your time to grammar and spelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 We have established that the object itself is not illegal. We have established that viking has no reason to believe his 'friend' is going to use it to do anything illegal. So, why on earth should he go to the police? What you are proposing is no different to the busy bodies who see us out shooting and decide to 'trot along' to the police station to report a madman with a gun. In fact, what you are proposing is worse, because unlike the busy bodies who genuinely think that shooting pigeons is a crime in progress, we know that possessing a deactivated shotgun isn't illegal. Furthermore, demanding answers to questions such as: Why does he want a deactivated sawn off? Why do people collect guns? Why do target shooters need military style AR15's? Why does anyone 'like' shooting guns? Is a road to misery for all of us. Answer: Because it's legal, we like it and in this country if it's legal then we are free to do it and long may it continue to be so. hear hear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harv Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Viking - if you can't see the damage your mate is doing to shooters in general - you have a problem. Trot down to your local FEO and tell him you don't see the problem or bigger picture. Good luck - you will need it. End of debate. Perhaps you should devote your time to grammar and spelling. Gordon why do you keep using hyphens incorrectly in your your sentences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 "Alieums i tell you.......................!" Sorry...wrong thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 its a sad man to bring up spelling and grammar as an answer to something you cant answer, but like i said i knew you couldnt keep quiet,and by the way- why-is-it-you-keep-miss-using-hyphens-incorectly-in-your-sentances? pmls, cheers harv :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 wish i had never tried fo find the answer to my question now, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) If you have a deactivated firearm it is stated on the certificate the barrel length, the make ,the calibre , the serial number and weapon type these details are entered on the proof house computer and are available to the police and anyone who has a requirement to obtain a replacement de-act certificate :ie the owner . The firearm must remain in the same condition as presented to the proof house , If then any major component is altered :ie barrel /receiver or bolt all of which are then stamped by the proof house as being major pressure bearing items ,The firearm then reverts from being deactivated and not requiring a certificate back to a firearm requiring a certificate , Also if originally being presented as a shotgun with a barrel of greater than 24" but then altered to a barrel length of less than 24" changes its classification from a shotgun to a section 1 firearm which is not what it was when presented to the proof house on its original inspection. Most run of the mill plods will not know this but if something happens not necessarily firearms related :ie break-in or whatever and the police get sight of it and take it ,They WILL check up on it's pedigree and if someone in the know decides to run it by the crown prosecution service , Get ready for some big legal bills. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. Edited March 23, 2009 by Andy H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 A SAWN OFF SHOTGUN....WETHER ITS DEACTIVATED OR NOT ITS A NO NO....IT THE MOST THREATEN INTIMIDATING WEAPON TO BE SEEN WITH, BANK ROBBERS AND SAWN OFF SHOTGUN... KEEP WELL AWAY........ What a bloody stupid attitute!!!! Bank robber's also use handgun's and there banned over here! If someone want's a REPLICA sawn off shotgun for show AS AN ORNAMENT to keep in a case or on the wall or even just in a study or something that's to look at what's wrong with that ? I don't see the difference between that and someone hanging an old musket or rifle on the wall, some people have de-activated Lee Enfield rifle or maybe even machine guns! Who are you to decide that someone isn't allowed one ? In this case if it is not legal that's a different story entirely, if you bought a sawn off shotgun de-activated all forms and everything what's wrong with that ? Some people see some real ugly guns and think they're beautiful (bit like women ) nothing wrong with that (The guns not the women ) Guy I worked with has a FAC shotgun slot for a Franchi Spaz shotgun, when's his FEO asked him why he wanted one he said bacause it's such an iconic firearm That's part of the joy of shooting! They cleared him for it np Im sure if the barrel length didn't have to be atleast 24" then alot more people would have them just for fun, I know I'd like to have one if not just for fun plinking Be a great laugh :( It's the person that hold's the gun that makes the decision's! Attitude's like your's are what got pistols banned Some *******'s used pistols to kill people so they banned everyone from having them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted March 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 that all sound all pretty much like you know what your on about mate, cheers for that, i will look into it more tomorrow and just find out if he chopped it down or if its all legit. Cheers,Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 If then any major component is altered :ie barrel /receiver or bolt all of which are then stamped by the proof house as being major pressure bearing items ,The firearm then reverts from being deactivated and not requiring a certificate back to a firearm requiring a certificate I disagree with this bit. You do not have to have a proof certificate, proof markings and indeed the proof house does not even have to be involved. Here is an excerpt from the Home Office consultation paper CONTROLS ON DEACTIVATED FIREARMS A firearm is deactivated when it has been rendered incapable of firing ‘any shot, bullet or other missile’.It is then no longer considered to be a firearm and therefore no longer subject to control. A firearm is presumed to be deactivated if it has been stamped and certified by one of the two Proof Houses as conforming to deactivation standards set by the Home Office (Firearms Law: Specifications for the Adaptation of Shot Gun Magazines and the Deactivation of Firearms, ISBN 0113411421). This is an evidential provision only and does not preclude other forms of deactivation provided the outcome is no longer a firearm. However, a Proof House certificate has become the widely accepted system for showing that a firearm has been properly deactivated and that it can be possessed and traded lawfully. What this is saying is that the proof house route is the accepted way of doing it, however by law it is not the only way. So long as the finished article remains deactivated to a standard set by the Home Office then it is NOT a firearm. Obviously in practice if it became known he was 'modifying' deactivated guns then it would arouse suspicion and he would most likely have some explaining to do. And, as I said earlier, the gun would most likely be seized for inspection. However, if all he has done is cut the barrels and stock down and not touched any of the work done to deactivate it then it remains "incapable of firing ‘any shot, bullet or other missile’" and, assuming the work was done originally to Home Office spec, then there is no logical reason why it should be deemed otherwise now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I was all ways under the impression that the minimum lenghth of shotgun barrells were 24 inches ,and anything less than that would be illegal . However , i know somebody who has a cut down .410 shotgun on his ticket as a double barrel pistol for vermin control . This gun started life as a shot gun and was cut down for the purpose that it is now used for . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) We have established that the object itself is not illegal. We have established that viking has no reason to believe his 'friend' is going to use it to do anything illegal. So, why on earth should he go to the police? What you are proposing is no different to the busy bodies who see us out shooting and decide to 'trot along' to the police station to report a madman with a gun. In fact, what you are proposing is worse, because unlike the busy bodies who genuinely think that shooting pigeons is a crime in progress, we know that possessing a deactivated shotgun isn't illegal. Furthermore, demanding answers to questions such as: Why does he want a deactivated sawn off? Why do people collect guns? Why do target shooters need military style AR15's? Why does anyone 'like' shooting guns? Is a road to misery for all of us. Answer: Because it's legal, we like it and in this country if it's legal then we are free to do it and long may it continue to be so. Edited March 23, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) By virtue of Section 8 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988, a de-activated firearm is (unless the contrary is shown) presumed to have been rendered incapable of firing a shot, bullet or other missile and to have ceased to be a firearm under the firearms legislation, if it carries a mark to that effect approved by the Secretary of State and made by one of the above mentioned proof houses, and is certified by one of those proof houses as having been de-activated in a manner approved by the Secretary of State. Schedule 3 to this guide sets out the proof house marks approved by the Secretary of State under Section 8 of the 1988 Act indicating that firearms have been so deactivated. Schedule 4 to this guide sets out the approved manner of de-activation of different types of shotguns, Section 1 firearms and also certain prohibited weapons which are subject to Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968, which has been approved by the Secretary of State. Schedule 5 to this guide sets out a more stringent approved manner of de-activation applicable to a special category of Section 5 prohibited weapons. It only ceases being a firearm in law if it has been inspected and stamped by the two authorised bodies, The London gun barrel proof house and the Birmingham gun barrel proof house. This is an act of law not a consultation document which is not established law. This is also from the approved specifications for deactivication ,(Smooth-bore guns with barrels of less than 24 inches/609.6 mm in length normally will only be accepted for inspection if it can be demonstrated that they were manufactured as short-barrelled guns). Edited March 23, 2009 by Andy H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexm Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 It's interesting how, when you dig into these things, there are so many apparent contradictions! Anyway, I have found the reference regarding Section 8 of the firearms act being 'evidential' http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...xt/21021w26.htm Bob Ainsworth (the then Secretary of State for the Home Department) says: The Proof Houses have the authority to reject any deactivated firearms submitted to them which do not conform with the approved specifications. However, section 8 is only an evidential provision and does not preclude the possibility that a firearm which has been deactivated in some other manner may also have ceased to be a firearm within the meaning of section 57(1) of the Firearms Act 1968. In the event of a prosecution it would be for the courts to decide whether or not this was the case. Effectively the government is on record acknowledging that although a deactivated gun that hasn't been proofed isn't explicitly defined as a 'deactivated gun' under the 1988 amendment, it may also no longer meet the definition of a firearm under the principle act, the 1968 Firearms Act. I would imagine this is where the bit about "for the courts to decide" comes from in the "Approved Specifications for Deactivation" So basically, you go to court and they make a ruling based on what?..... A proof house inspection? Would a proof house deem a deactivated shotgun that was previously proofed but then subsequently had it's barrels chopped off no longer deactivated? I would like to see their reasoning if they did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted March 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 and so the plot thickens, this is all getting confusing now, but im trying to make heads or tails of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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