ODG Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I use a fairly standard sale/purchase contract when breeding my Welsh Terriers. Normally I sell them purely as companion dogs, not for show, breeding or as working dogs, and the contract clauses reflect that. I've had an enquiry from someone who may be interested in one of the forthcoming litter as a working dog, both as a beating dog and as a follow-up dog for stalking. Do any breeders use any specific clauses in their sale/purchase contracts relating to the use and care of the dog while being used as a working animal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniel Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Hope you dont mind me asking, but why would you think a dog as a companion would be treated any different then a dog used for working. Im not into terriers but i have springers but although i class them as working dogs they are my dogs and i love them to bits, Cheers Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODG Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I don't mind you asking in the least... I don't expect a dog to be treated any differently, my query is more related to whether any specific clauses are normally included in the sale contracts for working dogs. For companion dogs, it's now becoming normal to include a 'spay/neuter' clause to ensure that the dog is not used for breeding - especially with the extra coverage that puppy farms and irresponsible breeding is getting. What I'm after is whether any specific clauses are included either to state an expectation of a level of training, or if certain types of 'work' are specified (or forbidden), other than the standard ones for 'appropriate training' and 'not to be used for fighting'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenhunter Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Why do certain breeders put restrictions on the dogs they sell anyway? If I buy a gun I don't expect the seller to make me sign a 'contract' that insists I can only shoot it using Eley carts or when I should clean it or I can't sell it on if I want to! As far as I can see its only dog breeders that think they can dictate how their pups should be looked after/bred from/worked/shown or whatever. Advice is another matter and I would expect any breeder to give basic feeding and care leaflets to make the transition from one home to another as easy on the pup as possible. Sorry, its one of my pet hates(pardon the pun ) By the way, I am a breeder and I don't give 'contracts' only sound advice. GH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I'm also curious as to what these contracts achieve / try to achieve. ODG, how do you enforce / police your contracts? What penalties are in place? Do they have any legal standing or is it just a bit of paper that the buyers throw in the bin as soon as they've left you? Like I say, I'm just curious. I've heard of failed guide dogs having a "no working" (or perhaps it was a "no shooting") clause but again, wondered how this can be enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) I'm also curious as to what these contracts achieve / try to achieve. ODG, how do you enforce / police your contracts? What penalties are in place? Do they have any legal standing or is it just a bit of paper that the buyers throw in the bin as soon as they've left you? Like I say, I'm just curious. I've heard of failed guide dogs having a "no working" (or perhaps it was a "no shooting") clause but again, wondered how this can be enforced. Yer I hate those damn things like you pick up a pup n they demand you have it spayed or neutered! What if it turns into the best working dog ever ? I doubt you need to contract stating there not allowed to fight the dog ODG as dog fighting is illegal! although I would be proud if a pup my dog had became a great worker The breeder I got my lab Skye off last week told me he'd rather buy her back off me than me have her spayed as she'd make a cracking mother I do intend to have a litter from her aslong as she turns out to be a good working dog although I think the best you can do is enquire about the buyer, ask them alot of questions and ask them what the dog is for etc. This breader knew I wanted a pup for a gundog as I asked alot of questions like that Edited July 15, 2009 by Bigthug87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODG Posted July 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 As I said, I'm selling thee dogs as 'Companion Dgs' - which generally means they will be purely a pet and not used for any other purpose. Greenhunter: of course I wouldn't expect a restriction on the use of a gun I bought, other than the legal restrictions of safety and game season - however a dog is a living animal, not an inanimate object... I expect it to be treated the way I would treat it if it stayed in my home with my family, and the contract just makes some statements to that effect. It also gives the buyer some warranty on the care the pup has received while in my home, including details of vaccinations and micro-chipping, and any relevant genetic scoring such as hip and eye scores (not relevant for Welsh Terriers, but other breeds include them in their contracts) The spay/neuter clause can either be omitted if the buyer has stated that they want to work/show/breed the dog, or, even if the buyer has originally intended only to have the dog as a companion, if they later (before spaying/neutering) decide that the dog is of show/breed/working quality, the spay/neuter clause can be lifted under written agreement. These things are flexible and not intended to replace the normal checking of any prospective buyer. I always advise my prospective buyer that I use a contract, and even before they come to see the pups for the first time, I send them a copy so that they are fully aware of their rights and responsibilities. If they decide not to buy from me because they don't like the contract - that's fine by me. These contracts are enforceable by law, and buyers can be fined if the contracts are not adhered to. The intention of the spay/neuter clause is to help avoid unecessary / unwanted litters, as well as to attempt to prevent dogs being used in puppy farms. Please - I dont want this to get into a heated debate about puppy farms or whether or not contracts should exist in the first place. I was just looking for some advice on whether working animals had specific clauses. I guess from the responses so far, breeders of working animals aren't using contracts at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniel Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 I think offering to buy the pup back if the buyer encounters any problems in a given time period is a good clause, but as a breeder/owner it would be down to you to check that you are satisfied where the pup is going to, if you dont think the home is suitable then dont sell the pup to them.....i dont like all these clauses to be honest and i wouldnt buy a pup from anyone who enforced me todo some thing i didnt want to do. I once enquired about a pup and i was asked several questions one was about breeding...my honest answer was that i had no idea if i would breed from the pup or not as that was a decision which in my view was years away....the breeder at the time said excellent as if i have said an instant no to breeding and that i was going to get the pup nutered then there was no way i would get one of his pups....as he wanted the lines to continue. But good luck with the pups and a good interesting topic to post, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshirePurdey Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 ODG, just curious, but how would you actually be able to enforce any clauses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 I'd not buy or sell a dog with those clauses in place its simply gone OTT to the point where some of those clauses are barmy in the extreme. To me a neuter / spay clause says the dogs breeding is such that it shouldn't be bred from in the future which to me smacks of inherent problems. Some breeders are so far up their own backsides if they believe they are the only ones suitable to breed dogs that its frankly amazing. Yes vet homes and don't sell them to unsuitable people but I'd like to think you'd never sell a dog with that kind of contract to anyone on here. What do you think happens to working dogs? most working dogs are treated far better than family pets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenhunter Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 I don't breed working dogs as it happens. They are pets and/or show dogs sold with no restrictions but believe me the new owners are checked out and don't get one if there is reason to think the new home is unsatisfactory. The new owner is always told that they can bring the pup back if things don't work out for any reason and we have had them back in the past although it doesn't happen too often. I realise a gun is hardly in the same category but I could have used almost any other animal to demonstrate the argument. It seems to be cat and dog breeders who do this and I think it is so hypocritical to try and prevent someone else doing exactly what you, the breeder, has just done! I also think that it is wrong to sell a working breed and not allow the dog to perform its natural instincts. In my mind it will be a happier dog for having the experience. Not even going to mention puppy farming, too emotive a subject for this topic. At the end of the day they are your dogs and as I've said, you can do what you want with them! GH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 As I said, I'm selling thee dogs as 'Companion Dgs' - which generally means they will be purely a pet and not used for any other purpose. Greenhunter: of course I wouldn't expect a restriction on the use of a gun I bought, other than the legal restrictions of safety and game season - however a dog is a living animal, not an inanimate object... I expect it to be treated the way I would treat it if it stayed in my home with my family, and the contract just makes some statements to that effect. It also gives the buyer some warranty on the care the pup has received while in my home, including details of vaccinations and micro-chipping, and any relevant genetic scoring such as hip and eye scores (not relevant for Welsh Terriers, but other breeds include them in their contracts) The spay/neuter clause can either be omitted if the buyer has stated that they want to work/show/breed the dog, or, even if the buyer has originally intended only to have the dog as a companion, if they later (before spaying/neutering) decide that the dog is of show/breed/working quality, the spay/neuter clause can be lifted under written agreement. These things are flexible and not intended to replace the normal checking of any prospective buyer. I always advise my prospective buyer that I use a contract, and even before they come to see the pups for the first time, I send them a copy so that they are fully aware of their rights and responsibilities. If they decide not to buy from me because they don't like the contract - that's fine by me. These contracts are enforceable by law, and buyers can be fined if the contracts are not adhered to. The intention of the spay/neuter clause is to help avoid unecessary / unwanted litters, as well as to attempt to prevent dogs being used in puppy farms. Please - I dont want this to get into a heated debate about puppy farms or whether or not contracts should exist in the first place. I was just looking for some advice on whether working animals had specific clauses. I guess from the responses so far, breeders of working animals aren't using contracts at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODG Posted July 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 As I've said, the purpose of this thread was to ask if any working dog breeders used any clauses in their sale contracts. This thread is not intended to debate the use or usefulness of sale contracts, not to discuss spay/neuter clauses, or whether working dogs are treated any differently than any other dog. Please try to keep this on topic - it was a fair question, how about some fair answers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 thats my opinion and a fair one. contracts are put in place to ensure the breeder makes more money. simple as that. like has been said, you would not buy a shotgun and expect to be told what carts to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 or a car and told not to drive over 70. On the idea of working dogs and contracts I'd love to see any bit argued in court where you tried to demonstrate a dog was working and the owner said it was doing what comes naturally unless of course you have a way of stopping a terrier working. Its a bit of a co-incidence but i was at a party on saturday where someone had their 8 month Irish terrier there and it was great not sure they are suitable for a pet home but this was a character and i'd imagine would make a cracking shooting dog. Full of energy and into everything funnily enough it came from Bristol so not too far away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprocket Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 ODG -Why do you need the opinions of others? You should do what you think is correct, but I also support the majority of these posts whereby a working dog should be worked - and if their owners are anything like me, the dogs will have an exceptionaly good life with the best life can offer. As far as contracts are concerned, I don't think anybody should have the right to Dictate what an an individual should do with anything that somebody has paid good money for. I think that breeders that put breeding clauses on dogs are thinking more about protecting their own profit margin than protecting the dogs future. Anybody else agree or am I being narrow minded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 ODG -Why do you need the opinions of others? You should do what you think is correct, but I also support the majority of these posts whereby a working dog should be worked - and if their owners are anything like me, the dogs will have an exceptionaly good life with the best life can offer. As far as contracts are concerned, I don't think anybody should have the right to Dictate what an an individual should do with anything that somebody has paid good money for. I think that breeders that put breeding clauses on dogs are thinking more about protecting their own profit margin than protecting the dogs future.Anybody else agree or am I being narrow minded? I completely agree. Also its not just the money they payed for the dog but also the effort and love and care given to the dog! My breeder insisted I did have a litter from my pup as he spent alot of time getting good dogs together I still fail to see how ODG would enforce his "contract", how will he even know if the dog was spayed/neutered or not! Who's he going to run n tell to ? Who's going to take something so ridiculous to court, Fines my ***, I bet they'd would just rule that it was up to the owner if they wanted it done and even if you won it would probally cost you a fortune to go to court in the first place! Seems very silly if you ask me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveH Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 These contracts are enforceable by law, and buyers can be fined if the contracts are not adhered to. A fine is applied under criminal law - breach of contract is a civil matter and you would have to sue the other party for compensation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 What is all this about? Contracts? what are they for? If I went to buy a dog and the breeder wanted me to sign a contarct I would leave straight away. When I bought my dog I picked him at 11 days old, went to visit him once a week and at 8 weeks old I paid the money and took him home. Anybody so far up their own backside to even consider a contract doesn't deserve anyone to buy a dog from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 What is all this about? Contracts? what are they for? If I went to buy a dog and the breeder wanted me to sign a contarct I would leave straight away. When I bought my dog I picked him at 11 days old, went to visit him once a week and at 8 weeks old I paid the money and took him home. Anybody so far up their own backside to even consider a contract doesn't deserve anyone to buy a dog from them. Exactly lol! Who do you think you are ? Some big puppy business or something! The ONLY reason I could see someone doing this is to stop people having puppies n selling or keeping one! So people have to come back to you to get another one or get 1! If the breeder I got mine off had made me do **** like that I wouldn't have bothered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallarben Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 personly i think these contracts are a waist of paper people dont abuy by them the same as putting blocks on kc papers all these people do is loose the papers and breed them none registered so more unregistered pups about which nobody can trace but i blame the breeders for this. i would not buy a pup with contracts on it i think if uv payed good money for a pup and at a time in its life you want to breed a litter of pups it should be up to the owner to but the bitch though serton tests ei. labs eyes hips and elbows. how many of us shooting people have ran a bitch on a shoot day and someones said if you ever breed her id be interested in a pup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blahblahblah Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 I use a fairly standard sale/purchase contract when breeding my Welsh Terriers. Normally I sell them purely as companion dogs, not for show, breeding or as working dogs, and the contract clauses reflect that. I've had an enquiry from someone who may be interested in one of the forthcoming litter as a working dog, both as a beating dog and as a follow-up dog for stalking. Do any breeders use any specific clauses in their sale/purchase contracts relating to the use and care of the dog while being used as a working animal? To answer your question "No" Ive not heard of any thing except from asking that if you do breed from your dog that you come back for advice for finding a suitable partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danccooke Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 When we bought Zak our little-ish Ridgeback we signed a contract but it was more of a recipt if I remember correctly and a warranty. Stating what he had been fed, how much how often. What wormers and when. Stated about if he was ever up for sale to give them first refusal (more of a request than an order) and also about if he fell ill (or worse) in the first year due to breading related issues they would replace him at the next available litter. Nothing about enforced Neutering, and i don't plan of having him done, if he aint broke...... but on that note if he does get really really boystrous then we would consider it, but not until he is 18 - 24 months old, fully grown with no risk of causing health issues. There was something about breeding but that was to do with letting them know who the bitch would be (more for thier records than anything else) and a bit basically saying look after him, and we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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