24 Grams V 28 Grams?

[Elmer Fudd 1]

22.250 drop charts (multiple souces) copy and paste url to view

http://aussiehunter.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/22-250-Rem-Trajectory1.jpg

http://www.sniperflashcards.com/images/federalexample2.jpg

http://gundata.org/images/22-250-ballistics-chart.png

and some 22lr (again multiple sources)

http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/1022/images/22subsonic_plot.gif

http://varmintal.com/17hmrdp2.png

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/attachments/guns-guns-guns/8707d1131568807-rimfire-trajectory-post-52-1131568807.png

 

as you can see the 22.250rem has a much further effective range with accuracy than the 22lr

 

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh515/Savage22-250/22-250.jpg

http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/1022/images/22_subsonic_table.gif

 

above are two ballistic table for the 22.250 and 22lr respectively. it is clear that the 22.250 is faster, harder hitting and deeper penetrating than the 22lr at any range up to and far beyond the optimum range of the 22lr.

 

http://www.frfrogspad.com/22%2040gr%20RNL.jpg (22lr cavity expansion )

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/robert19622/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20GAMMER-PC/fox002.jpg (22.250 expansion sorry for gore)WARNING DEAD ANIMAL)

 

although the last is not very scientific i believe it highlights the effective stopping power of the round. will that do you hamster! :thumbs:

 

your turn

Edited April 1, 2013 by Elmer Fudd 1

[Hamster]

Nicely done but I think you missed the point. If you really need to be shown the difference between 21 and 28 then the only way is that we meet up at a shoot so I can show you. Challenge accepted?

[shaun4860]

I think you both need to come to the PW charity shoot and put this to bed.......

 

 

[Elmer Fudd 1]

Nicely done but I think you missed the point. If you really need to be shown the difference between 21 and 28 then the only way is that we meet up at a shoot so I can show you. Challenge accepted?

i kind of enjoyed doing the little challenge,took up some of my day

i used to shoot 28g until i had a lesson with a instructor, im not name dropping in case i heard him wrong he was using a 28bore shooting 14g and was dusting clay's i would only imagine hit-able with a extra full choked 12bore. he said a 21g carts forces the shot out in such a way that the pellets are deformed less than when shot out of a 28g.to the extent at which this actually has an effect on shot pattern and ballistics, i have no idea.

one question i would like to ask though is a 28gr can hit a target at a much longer range that a 21g does that mean that you would stand any closer (in a theoretical situation)to a shooter pointing a 21g than if the cartridge they where firing was a 28g load

 

 

fudd

[Elmer Fudd 1]

I think you both need to come to the PW charity shoot and put this to bed.......

 

 

its really all just personal opinion we all stick to what we know be it though personal preference or something we have been told at the end of the day they all go bang and sometimes break clays.

[Hamster]

i used to shoot 28g until i had a lesson with a instructor, im not name dropping in case i heard him wrong he was using a 28bore shooting 14g and was dusting clay's i would only imagine hit-able with a extra full choked 12bore. he said a 21g carts forces the shot out in such a way that the pellets are deformed less than when shot out of a 28g.to the extent at which this actually has an effect on shot pattern and ballistics, i have no idea.

 

fudd

 

He was talking out of his metaphorical. It's really quite simple, certain things and subject bring out the non existent expert in many of us, examples are chokes, shot charges and patterns. You get out of it what you put in it, meaning to all intents and purposes there is no such thing as a better pattern due to lower velocity or shot charge. In theory yes, too high a velocity coupled to too high a shot load can produce poor patterns but since real life isn't like that we get loads that are tailored to perform correctly.

 

28g loads perform better than 21 or 24 if for no other reason than they'll place more pellets inside your useful cluster down range, so increasing the probability of strikes. You don't need a hammer to break a brittle little disk since a tiny size 8 would more often than not do hence the higher probability factor.

[BlaserF3]

There was a competition held last year at a clay ground and ALL shooters were given the same 21gm cartridges. I think the winning score was a 96.

 

All shooters who wished to shoot the course again, were allowed to shoot the course with their 28gm cartridges, the winning score was a 98.

[Gordon R]

Mike - it would be interesting if they did another, but 28gms first. It might be that they knew the targets better the second time around.

[BlaserF3]

I've found the results http://www.wylye-shooting.co.uk/pages/results/ The shoot was held on the 30th September. I was one clay out on the winning score.

 

It just proves a point Gordon, I thought it was a good result for 21gm loads. I've found they do throw a tighter pattern than 28gms through the same choke.

 

I intend to ignore the unbelievers, as they will not take the time and trouble to find out for themselves that light loads do work and are a pleasure to shoot

[Kermit the frog]

Dear Elmer,

 

To answer your question if I understand it correctly,

 

11 grams of 6 shot through a 36 bore (.410) goes approximately the same distance as 28 grams of 6 shot through a 12 bore (.729)

 

What alters is the number of pellets in your pattern, a tube or swarm of pellets traveling at around 1000 ft/sec

 

Going back to my original post

 

The damage recoil does to the human body is relative, for a number of years I was chasing scores I was putting 500 cartridges through the gun every week, some of that time it was 32 gram. I am reliably informed that Peter Wilson was putting that through a gun every day, though perhaps only 6 days a week.

 

I and many other long time shooters suffer from neck and shoulder damage which manifests itself through nerve damage and flinch.

 

21 & 24 gram work very very well, most of the problem is confidence in what you are shooting!

 

kermit

[Hamster]

A shoot being won with compulsory 21g loads proves nothing. Clays being broken at 85 yards with 21g loads prove nothing. Both are inevitable, what is important is that there are no competitive shooters routinely using 21g instead of 28g because they know they will miss more, one or two more misses are enough to lose you the shoot.

 

The fact that 21g loads break clays is a given, so would 10g loads, but the more lead (pellets) you remove from your cluster the lower the probability of strikes, especially at range. It's not even clever physics, it's complete and utter reality.

 

Recoil is a different subject and aspect.

[Elmer Fudd 1]

that is a very fair point indeed

shall we settle half way and go with 24g haha

[Elmer Fudd 1]

i dug my self a nice sizable hole here didn't i haha

my i please thank hamster for challenging me to the 22.250 and 22lr challenge. i enjoyed doing it and also learnt some stuff about other rounds. such as the 5.56 nato and the .223 rem

A 223 rem can be shot through a 5.56 but this can not be reversed due to the higher pressures of the 5.56. quite interesting i thought.

by all means shoot the weight that suits you the best

 

 

 

also through reading in to it i found that clays where universally shot with a 30g shell many years ago and they have no chokes

i respect the champions of those days, because they where some really good shots(not that today's shots are any less amazing)

Edited April 2, 2013 by Elmer Fudd 1

[Hamster]

that is a very fair point indeed

shall we settle half way and go with 24g haha

Actually 24g is not a bad choice at all, particularly in the smaller shot sizes like 8 or 9 it can do a very good job of impersonating a 7.5 load of 28g. I have never doubted the ability of 21g loads to break clays, it's all the play on words that are all the hook you need to wind me in .

 

If you assemble the worlds best shooters for an all round (Skeet, ABT, ESP, Fitasc) competition with a £5k HG prize and give them the choice of using any load they like between 32/28/24/21, I am sure many would pick the 28 instead of 32, one or two may pick 24 for certain applications such as maybe Skeet or ABT if that's their speciality. Nobody would choose to compete with 21g loads yet time and again we have this persistent myth that these throw such superior patterns due to not suffering pellet damage blah blah but no takers as soon as you say show me the money.

[Salop Matt]

I dont know anything about the scientific results etc but I always use 28gram + in my 12g semi as it wont cycle 100% of the time with lighter loads but i do appreciate less recoil from the semi.

 

In my 20g pump i dont notice any real difference between 28grams and 24grams so now now am going to try 21gram 20g shells and test them out but at the momenet for clays am going to move from 28gram in 20g to 24gram. My breaks were as good and consistant so why not..... It saves my £`s.

 

 

Strangely though my farther wont shoot 21 or 24 gram loads as he just sees it as less peelts so less chance of a kill/break but still !

 

ATB

 

Matt

[Guest cookoff013]

I dont know anything about the scientific results etc but I always use 28gram + in my 12g semi as it wont cycle 100% of the time with lighter loads but i do appreciate less recoil from the semi.

 

In my 20g pump i dont notice any real difference between 28grams and 24grams so now now am going to try 21gram 20g shells and test them out but at the momenet for clays am going to move from 28gram in 20g to 24gram. My breaks were as good and consistant so why not..... It saves my £`s.

 

 

Strangely though my farther wont shoot 21 or 24 gram loads as he just sees it as less peelts so less chance of a kill/break but still !

 

ATB

 

Matt

 

it pays off big time for clays shooting smaller shotsize than 7.5s. use something like 8s or better still 9s with the 21gram in 20gauge. shot count is as good as, even on sporting courses, it`ll do good.

the only thing where they may struggle is the serious long shots, but i`m talking 60-65yards + . you know, when those who set up the courses get "excited".

[VINCED 686]

I bought a load of 24g after breaking my hand because I was concerned about the recoil. Im now back onto 28s and still have half a slab of 24s. I dont think there is anything in it to be honest, I just feel happier with 28g loads in !!

[lakeside1000]

I shoot clays and pigeons with 24 gram 7.5 steel and am very happy with the hit ratio, granted the 7.5 does not have a great range but I prefer to shoot within 40 yards anyway, if you get the bird , or clay dead center it will be a kill, and the bonus is they are only £130 a thousand,

[john m]

I have been reading with interest this chat about potential brain injury through shooting 28g loads.

After 22 years in the army and fifteen years as a weapons instructor i have fired thousands of rounds through weapons with more recoil than a shotgun and i cannot say it has caused me any problems in my neck or shoulders.

The only time i had headaches is because of the ale the night before.

[Hamster]

Hi John M,

 

It may well be to do with the type of arms you use and even the position you shoot from, not to mention the amount in a day or how many rounds in a short space of time. Not everyone gets headaches but a great many do eventually get some sort of either shoulder or neck problems, it's all to do with different thresholds and of course how wisely you choose your gun and ammo etc. Military arms are designed to recoil back in a straight line to avoid flip recoil I believe?

[T.C.]

I have been reading with interest this chat about potential brain injury through shooting 28g loads.

After 22 years in the army and fifteen years as a weapons instructor i have fired thousands of rounds through weapons with more recoil than a shotgun and i cannot say it has caused me any problems in my neck or shoulders.

The only time i had headaches is because of the ale the night before.

 

 

Hi John,

 

I am reminded of the man who jumped off the Empire State building. Half way down he was heard to remark "OK so far!"

[john m]

Hi John M,

 

It may well be to do with the type of arms you use and even the position you shoot from, not to mention the amount in a day or how many rounds in a short space of time. Not everyone gets headaches but a great many do eventually get some sort of either shoulder or neck problems, it's all to do with different thresholds and of course how wisely you choose your gun and ammo etc. Military arms are designed to recoil back in a straight line to avoid flip recoil I believe?

I can only speak for my own experiance we used to test fire modifications on weapons at one job i did, ie. 40000 rounds through a GPMG in around eight hours by linking the belts together.

All auto/semi auto weapons flip up when fired due to the angle the return spring rod or the butt in the case of the 9mm Stirling SMG mounted at a slight downward angle in relation to the barrel when viewed from the side.

You did not get any choice in the guns or ammo it was all standard NATO issue.

PS the mod to the GPMG did'nt work so it was back to the drawing board.

Edited April 19, 2013 by john m

[coyotemaster]

I think we have been around this bush before and as many know I am a big proponent of 21 gram loads. I don't find the need for 24 or 28 gram loads and kill birds as far with the 21s as with heavier loads via a bit tighter choke. One aspect not mentioned that is very noteworthy is shotshell components---I shoot plastic wads and magnum grade(6% antimony 7 1/2 shot) and this is huge compared to soft shot and card wads. Deformation can and does occur in shotshells as they navigate forcing cones and choke constriction. I won't argue with the more is better guys because I have found it futile. My experience tells me that it is how much round shot that arrives on target that matters not how much that starts out and invariably is deformed by setback and other factors.

Brain injury info is hard to find (I looked) but retinal detachment seems to be a problem along with flinching and shoulder problems. After an evening of shooting 200-300 shells at starlings and pigeons I can attest that the feeling is similr to a few rounds with a decent welterweight in terms of cognizants. As for permanent damage-------what were we talking about now?

[deershooter]

Just going down the 24 gram route as I have 10 kg of Vectan AS24 just on the first slab of 9 shot loaded

 

Deershooter

[Guest cookoff013]

Just going down the 24 gram route as I have 10 kg of Vectan AS24 just on the first slab of 9 shot loaded

 

Deershooter

 

i`ve just fired of my loads emulating this, its a fantastic combo.

my load is running at 1400fps and is quite smooth.

 

i bought some RC #9 24g loads as a comparison.

they are all sweet loads.