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Lesson before Licensing?


Guest The Outlaw
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Guest The Outlaw

I have quite a few friends that want to take up shooting and have asked grounds that I use, if they can Have-A- Go.

 

As always the responsable grounds ask what shooting if any have they done before?

 

Knowing a few coaches and some mini buses as I do, I asked what they thought to the idea of everyone having an

 

awareness lesson/session before they were granted a Shotgun certificate.

 

The coaches though it was great, not because it would create revenue for them, but it makes coaching in the future safer.

 

I.E There is nothing stopping you from having a certificate without prior handling and saftey advice on shotguns.

 

Before you get your certificate, could you not go to a ground and have a saftey instruction and a beginner lesson/session,

 

then get the coach/instructor to sign a part of the application form to say you are competant before you get your license

 

approved.

 

It helps coaches work out what knowlege you might have and will stop people turning up at shoots swinging around and

 

generally being dangerous.

 

Fortunatley it isnt very common but it would at least give the anti's less amunition against what is a very safe sport.

 

 

Tony

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I have quite a few friends that want to take up shooting and have asked grounds that I use, if they can Have-A- Go.

 

As always the responsable grounds ask what shooting if any have they done before?

 

Knowing a few coaches and some mini buses as I do, I asked what they thought to the idea of everyone having an

 

awareness lesson/session before they were granted a Shotgun certificate.

 

The coaches though it was great, not because it would create revenue for them, but it makes coaching in the future safer.

 

I.E There is nothing stopping you from having a certificate without prior handling and saftey advice on shotguns.

 

Before you get your certificate, could you not go to a ground and have a saftey instruction and a beginner lesson/session,

 

then get the coach/instructor to sign a part of the application form to say you are competant before you get your license

 

approved.

 

It helps coaches work out what knowlege you might have and will stop people turning up at shoots swinging around and

 

generally being dangerous.

 

Fortunatley it isnt very common but it would at least give the anti's less amunition against what is a very safe sport.

 

 

Tony

 

 

nothing against it until you mention the cost, and the level of competence needed.

as already been said in another thread on this site shooting in the UK is very safe,and i don't think the antis can gain any ground from it. a mate of mine used to be a shooting instructure, practicle handgun/shotgun. who could teach his children/grand children any better than him.

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my opinion is No

i will reason why

1 lesson will not guarantee to make you gun safe !!!

2 it will be exploited regardless of what you say about not just the revenue not saying all would but one time would be enough !!!

3 Go back and ask them how many are prepared to sign a legal document saying someone is safe after just one lesson refer to point 2

4 The FEO will deff ask what experience / knowledge you have and its not a good idea to say "None and i know nothing" put simply you would prob get refused

5 It would need a to handled by say the cpsa or the basc so again refer to point 1 and 3

6 the FEO,s job is to do as you suggest THEY DECIDE IF YOUR SAFE !! i would think there well trained to do this !!!

7 if anyone where to lets say mess around in a dangerous manor as you imply , Anywhere i have been you would be asked to leave and prob told not to come back ...

8 I genuinely do not know anyone irresponsible enough to apply for a sgl with no prior shooting experience's i mean why would you ?,

 

 

 

I had lessons and a joined a club this forum and the BASC plus i also read a whole lot prior to FEO visit and it paid off well if i had not of done I prob would have not known the replies the FEO required and would have expected to be refused .. i also had a lot of good advice from an a buddy who i had shot with prior , without all the above i don't think i would have just put a sgl app in on just a whim and if people actualy do that well all i can say is they deserve to be refused end off story its just Stupid

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The problem with this kind of thing is how far it will be taken. The DSC is a very good example of this. It's not a legal requirement (yet) to have one to shoot Deer, but the first question asked when you apply for a Deer calibre is "Do you have a DSC?". I happen to have people who will spend several days with me in the field to show me the ropes, and over several stalking sessions. This is seen as second best to the DSC by the firearms department, even though in my opinion I will learn a lot more practical skill with my mentors than by doing a week long exam! All these things are a good idea, but only if they're not pushed as a legal requirement. There are other forms of training besides exams and costly coaching, but sometimes when an official form of training is introduced these free methods which have been used for generations are made less acceptable. :angry:

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This is something that the Shooting Organisations (incl CPSA) have been allegedly whispering about for years.

 

Their motivation is nothing to do with making shooting safer (it is already just about the safest sport/hobby in the UK) , but all about revenue creation and jobs for all.

 

I would fight against compulsory courses prior to certification being granted.

 

If anyone feels particularly nervous, lacks confidence or just wants to hone their skills, there is nothing to stop them have private lessons, thats their prerogative, but don't suggest compulsion to me.

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here in canada we have to comply with the regulations, this requires anyone wishing to purchase a firearm (long gun-handgun) to take this cource, personaly i hae no problem with it at all, the cource i took was nessasary to get my canadian licence, having to forfit my UK firearms and shotgun certs, i found it very informative and educating, it certainly opened my eyes to the amount of ignorant people that do apply for gun licences, i'd sooner they were whittled out sooner than later,

 

http://www.firearms-safetytraining.com/

 

just ot play devils advocate Jayward and this is i no way a slander of your post

 

1 lesson will not guarantee to make you gun safe !!!

nothing will

 

2 it will be exploited regardless of what you say about not just the revenue not saying all would but one time would be enough !!!

this applies to any institute, trust is something we all look for, if it was regulated by the say shooting fraternity, would it work then, no gaurantees anywhere are there

 

3 Go back and ask them how many are prepared to sign a legal document saying someone is safe after just one lesson refer to point 2

when you take your car out the garage after its mot is it safe??? "it was when i tested it"

 

4 The FEO will deff ask what experience / knowledge you have and its not a good idea to say "None and i know nothing" put simply you would prob get refused

i would rather someone be honest andsay they no nothing than lie like an sob, i now know where to start when i train them.

 

5 It would need a to handled by say the cpsa or the basc so again refer to point 1 and 3

 

6 the FEO,s job is to do as you suggest THEY DECIDE IF YOUR SAFE !! i would think there well trained to do this !!!

why can i not prooveto them i am safe, how do they decide my ability or lack thereof, training?

 

7 if anyone where to lets say mess around in a dangerous manor as you imply , Anywhere i have been you would be asked to leave and prob told not to come back ...

goes without saying

 

8 I genuinely do not know anyone irresponsible enough to apply for a sgl with no prior shooting experience's i mean why would you ?,

where did they get there experience without said licence, i know i went out first with elders and learnt before i applied.

 

just the other side of the coin, i have seen many safe guns make mistakes as well as newbies who are learning, its a well respected sport we belong to, most of the training comes from experienced shooters, this will always be passed down to newer shooters this in turn fuels the sport with the next generations, imo any training given to new shooters is an asset that should be considered by all.

 

Martin

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""just ot play devils advocate Jayward and this is i no way a slander of your post""

i take no offense @ all but to elaborate and make plainly clear all the points i could think of why IMO !! its not a good idea in that particular context could have took a excessively long time and im hungry lol

i agree with the above replies :angry::yes::w00t:

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imo any training given to new shooters is an asset that should be considered by all.

in the first post here.(The coaches though it was great, not because it would create revenue for them).

 

how many coaches would say you only needed 5 lessons if they could sell you 10.

if a basic safety course was made compulsory i would rather the old bill run the course.

at a price that does not have to keep the share holders happy.

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Do people really just apply for a SGC having never held a SG before!!! :angry: I do hope that the powers that be filter all these people out. I shot for 10 years with my best friend and his father on their farm before i got mine.

I'm not sure compulsory lessons is a good idea as it will never make up for the knowledge of quarry identification and general gun safety that can be handed down from another good shooter. Lets not forget that without this people would simply take one lesson, buy a shotgun and go into the nearest field and end up shooting someone's cat by mistake. By all means have some lessons if you have not shot before, learn some good safety tips but then find yourself a responsible shooter to go out with and get some decent first hand knowlege.

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Do people really just apply for a SGC having never held a SG before!!! :blink: I do hope that the powers that be filter all these people out. I shot for 10 years with my best friend and his father on their farm before i got mine.

I'm not sure compulsory lessons is a good idea as it will never make up for the knowledge of quarry identification and general gun safety that can be handed down from another good shooter. Lets not forget that without this people would simply take one lesson, buy a shotgun and go into the nearest field and end up shooting someone's cat by mistake. By all means have some lessons if you have not shot before, learn some good safety tips but then find yourself a responsible shooter to go out with and get some decent first hand knowlege.

 

good post that and well said, but some organisations will stand to make a good few bob again if they can bring this off.

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This is something that the Shooting Organisations (incl CPSA) have been allegedly whispering about for years.

 

Their motivation is nothing to do with making shooting safer (it is already just about the safest sport/hobby in the UK) , but all about revenue creation and jobs for all.

 

I would fight against compulsory courses prior to certification being granted.

 

If anyone feels particularly nervous, lacks confidence or just wants to hone their skills, there is nothing to stop them have private lessons, thats their prerogative, but don't suggest compulsion to me.

 

 

:blink:

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Guest The Outlaw

Some very interesting views here and good ideas.

 

IMO there could be some that slip through the net of the FEO,and like someone has said the Police could do the courses.

 

As it stands at the moment though there is nothing stopping anyone from applying for the SGC and going out and buying a shotgun.

 

When the FEO asks why you need a SGC anyone could lie, and probably have in the past.

 

Pointless I know but there will always be one.

 

Good views all the same.

 

 

Tony

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I feel it would discriminate against young shooters getting certs to further themselves in pest control activities. Many of them will come from shooting families especially the children of farmers: They will have likely learnt informally with their parents, siblings or other responsible person. We don;t want a situation where it is one rule for clay shooters and one for pest controllers either.

 

A shotgun certificate is simply a document authorising posession and purchase of shotguns and carts. It does not mean a person having one is going to aquire a shotgun before they are competent to do so. The few that might are usually weeded out by the FEO's informal guidelines when the interviews are being done anyway.

 

Perhaps a suitable compromise would be a theory test to get a license. This is what they do in New Zealand before a firearms license can be issued. The test is based on knowledge contained in the arms code: http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/arms-code.pdf

 

The code gives every prospective license holder a grounding in safe firearms handling, basic operation knowledge and range conduct etc. While it does not replace practical tuition; the subsequent arms code exam ensures that every license holder has a good grounding in safety from day one. Obviously if such a test were incorporated over here; informally trained shooters would have just as much confidence in passing it as those who were professionally instructed. Providing their tuition had been up to scratch.

 

It would seem a little pointless for a certificate holder to teach his son or daughter how to shoot pests properly and safely under their supervision then; have to travel to a clay ground for expensive lessons shooting clays before they could get a license of their own. Given the current financial hardship most farming families face; this would make it very difficult for the parents to get already expensive certs for their offspring.

 

Pest control can be a very important task on the farm: It is far more easier to do if other family members can shoot without supervision when they are skilled enough to do so, enabling the farmer to get on with struggling to make a decent living. Obviously they need their own certs to do this. Why make getting into shooting cost yet more money for safety tuition that could have been provided for free?

 

But then again; NZ's firearms laws are much more sensible in general than the laws in the UK. Registration of sporting rifles and shotguns was abolished. Pistols and military style semi-autos are more tightly controlled but; that is a far more sensible option than merely banning their possession by the law abiding.

 

mr_colt.

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Outlaw,

 

Are you sure you are not the anti on your committee? Why should you suggest anything like that?

 

There are thousands of certificate holders like myself who were bought up with guns and have been shooting from a very early age. And quite a few of them probably know more than most who work at a shooting ground.

 

I know the CPSA are pushing this as are the NRA for firearms, this is because they see it as a money making idea and not for the good of shooters.

 

It is up to the FEO to determine your suitability for a certificate, not someone who is being paid to make you jump through hoops.

 

"Have a go" stands are the way to encourage shooters, not making them sit a test and putting them off.

 

Rant over

 

Martin

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Guest The Outlaw
Outlaw,

 

Are you sure you are not the anti on your committee? Why should you suggest anything like that?

 

There are thousands of certificate holders like myself who were bought up with guns and have been shooting from a very early age. And quite a few of them probably know more than most who work at a shooting ground.

 

I know the CPSA are pushing this as are the NRA for firearms, this is because they see it as a money making idea and not for the good of shooters.

 

It is up to the FEO to determine your suitability for a certificate, not someone who is being paid to make you jump through hoops.

 

"Have a go" stands are the way to encourage shooters, not making them sit a test and putting them off.

 

Rant over

 

Martin

 

Anything but Martin,

 

I have also heard whispers of this being suggested and wondered what you guys thought.

 

In fact I first "Had-a-go" at a local show and shook like a leaf while I did it.

 

It was one of the biggest buzzes I have ever had.

 

The comments and ideas people have come up with are valid and good.

 

This doesnt stop people shooting, it is a suggestion that you are scrutinised a bit more before you get your first certificate.

 

IMO it would make sense especially in areas like cities where there is less likley to be a vermin problem.

 

I have every respect for young shooters and they can handle guns better than a lot of older people, in fact I have helped a

 

few join our sport and helped them where I can, both of my girls shoot, but because of thier ages they cannot hold a

 

license.

 

On the complete flip side I have been to straw bale shoots where old men in wellies were turning round and swinging thier

 

guns at people loading traps with closed and loaded side by side shotguns.

 

When they were challenged by a spectator they gave him evil looks and said they know what I am doing I have been

 

shooting for years.

 

It is that sort of behaviour and attitude that gives our sport a bad name.

 

A common sense attitude is needed and any way of checking that you have that is IMO a good way forward.

 

This is one of the safest sports you can take part and spectate in and I would like to keep it that way.

 

I would rather have a surgeon perform an operation on me rather than a surgical administrator and would compare the two

 

scenarios equally.

 

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

Tony

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Going to stick in my oar anyway even though it wouldn't apply to me. I don't see it benefiting anyone except the coaches and pencil pushers. Private concerns will try to sell an individual as much as possible, and who wants more paperwork for anything? From what I read on here and other UK sites, shooting sports do seem very safe indeed. Sure, there is an accident here and there but look at the statistics for cars...

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Tony,

 

Shooting IS the safest sport you can participate in so why the need for change? You will get the "I know what I am doing" scenario in all aspects of life.

 

Maybe I am in a minority but my FEO is a shooting man and pulling the wool over his eyes would be very difficult indeed.

 

He is also a local man and knows most people who go shooting and where so he asks all the right questions and knows what the answers are.

 

Paying someone to teach gun safety is no different to paying someone to teach you to drive and then breaking the speed limit or jumping red lights. Or is it OK to do that as long as you learnt to drive from a qualified instructor?

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I don't kow anyone stupid enough that would apply for a shotgun certificate, buy a shotgun and weald it about without any prior knowledge, experience or guidance. The sport is already more than sufficiently self regulated it does not need a rediculaous notion that a tested license would make it any safer than it is already. Not to mention the costs envolved.

 

The Police will not entertain such tests, to do so would require a massive injection of funding that they just don't have. It would also massively lengthen the time it takes to get a grant as waiting lists grow and grow and grow! We moan about waiting several months waiting lists could make it years. You think the Police would run weekly or even daily testing....think again!

 

This just sounds like a money making scheme party to other nonsense notions often promoted by those without any common sense and/or those in the PC brigade.

 

At the end of the day, there is nothing to stop a clay ground introducing its own scrutiny policy and that won't cost a penny.

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Tony

 

Have you not read about The Academy? I’m surprised because as a CPSA committee representative I would have thought you would. It was first introduced at the National AGM in March last year and is currently up and running with some coaches/instructors already signed up to be Academy Tutors and students are already completing The Modules. One of which is Shotgun Safety, the student is presented with a certificate at the end of each module by The Academy Tutors.

 

It’s a very controversial subject The Academy and I have my own personal views on it which I won’t go into. Also I’ll get told off for saying swear words on this forum.

 

Of course new shooters are not necessarily going to find an Academy Tutor at their local shooting ground, and I doubt all coaches will take The Academy course. Not everyone new to shooting will get The Academy treatment, but the CPSA see this as a start to safe shooting and making everyone who starts shooting be seen to be safe in the eyes of the public. Pah………!!!

 

But back to your points, I fail to see how a form stating you are competent gun handler will give the Licensing Department any idea of whether you are or not. I’ve got a driving licence but I’m the first to admit I do silly things sometimes and I’m not always safe behind the wheel.

 

It helps coaches work out what knowledge you might have………well no. A good coach will watch you shoot a few targets and then immediately know how little you really do know and build on that.

 

Will stop people turning up at shoots swinging around generally being dangerous……absolutely not. I’ve been to all kinds of shoots clay and game and there been the odd person that I have considered not to be safe. I nice smile and some gentle words and that’s the situation dealt with. It’s illegal to drink and drive but ar****** still do and kill people. We ourselves are Safety Officers at any shooting event we go to, whether it be in a field pigeon shooting or at the British Open.

 

Also lets just address the subject of the people you think should be able to hand out these Safety Certificates at shooting grounds, because some people call themselves coaches/instructors and really they have no right to. Just because you work at a shooting ground and take the odd corporate group out or do the odd beginners lesson does not make you an instructor or coach and what courses in safe gun handling have they passed?

 

When I applied for my licence at the age of <cough> 33 the FEO came round to my house for the cabinet inspection and asked me a myriad of questions. Why did I want to own a gun, where have I been shooting, who is teaching me, do I want to shoot a particular discipline, will I be game shooting? I doubt I would have got my licence if I’d just said, I fancied owning a gun really.

 

Jonsey

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I've got to agree with Jonsey on this one, there should be no formal system of assessing competency with a shotgun.

 

It simply wouldn't work and would create yet another level of beaurocracy..(Typo?).

 

They have such a system in France, (I believe), yet the beaters still wear Hi Viz jackets, I always stay well clear of French shooting parties..!!

 

Cat.

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The Police will not entertain such tests, to do so would require a massive injection of funding that they just don't have. It would also massively lengthen the time it takes to get a grant as waiting lists grow and grow and grow! We moan about waiting several months waiting lists could make it years. You think the Police would run weekly or even daily testing....think again!

 

Ahhhhhh, but the Police wouldn't run it/administer it, thats why it could appeal to them and the Government.

 

It would be run/administered by an "accredited provider" like CPAS, BASC etc.

They would set the fee levels and criteria and we would all have to troop off clutching our money to get our certificates of proficiency, before obtaining (or retaining ?) our SGC.

 

A bit like the Game Meat Handling Courses, which I believe cost £90+.

Fortunately, this requirement seems to be being completely ignored by the Dealers I know.

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Guest The Outlaw

I have been thinking about this for ages, since it was mentioned.

 

Hence I have asked you guys and gals for your opinions, and some great feedback has been received helping me to decide it is a load of old Tosh.

 

It would take up police time and money that they dont have and could line the pockets of the coaches and mini buses

 

Very interesting comments, makes a change for one of my threads

 

Keep them coming

 

Going to watch the second half of the shower of **** cock it up again :good:

 

Tony

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I see quite a few posters wondering how or why anyone would apply for a SGC without any knowledge or experience!

Well, that's pretty much what I did... However I did attend a "first shots day" at a local club.

 

I used to use the air rifle range at the said club. As I walked to & from the range I used to watch the Clay Shooters and couldn't help thinking "wow that looks like a whole lot more fun than shooting knock down targets"

 

I attended the "first shots day" this involved a safety talk, a look around the gun room, a look at shells & finally out to bust a few clays. It was a great day out, we were in small groups, we shot about 75 shells each & I was immediately hooked.

 

I applied for & acquired my SGC. The "first shots day" may have proved I am a responsible person, but the FEO's decision was made purely on my back ground. He asked a few easy questions, then when I started to relax, he threw in a couple of tough ones. He knew what he was doing!

 

I bought a gun & began shooting. I met a few people who introduced me to other clubs. I now have many shooting companions & I've made some very good friends including Outlaw, Calam & Pirate to name just the few that are members here.

 

So to wrap up this long winded post I'd have to say I'm against forced safety courses. It was my choice to do one, for my own & others safety. Most come into this great sport through friends or family who steer them in the right direction & teach them to shoot safely.

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