Evilv

Hollow points are NOT Dum-Dum bullets. Dum-Dum bullets were made in India in Mk.2 .303 and introduced into Indian service in 1896-7. In 1899 expanding bullets were declared by the Geneva Convention as inhumane, and illegal for use on humans. Dum-Dum bullets were not hollow points either, they were soft points. I was reading about this the other day Bob. They replaced the Martini Henry 45/70 with the new fangled high velocity .303 and when they shot the savages with them in those hot and nasty countries (I think it was around Afghanistan somewhere) they just got up and came on running, not having had the convincing shock of being hit by a .45. They used these lead dum dumbs quite happily until having to fight against western people and then it was thought bad form. Also, they didn't want the same kind of stuff back from them (two way dum dums). This is where it all gets cynical. The boffins designed an FMJ bullet that gets unstable when it hits flesh and tumbles causing severe wounds. This was done by filling the pointy end with an aluminium tip under the FMJ or even sterilised wood pulp, believe it or not. The military rounds are not as nice and civilised as they pretend to be. MORE INFO HERE -> Article on .303 and dum dums.

To get permission you need to look respectable, sound respectable and have decent social skills. That said, find out the names of farmers by looking them up in the phone book or from local intelligence, and go around in the evening and see them. It is also helpful if you can do some reconnaissance and target your efforts on farms that have a problem such as rabbits or pigeons. At this time of year, rabbits are a menace and many farmers will be glad to have a respectable lad doing something about their pests. Try not to look too green, and don't be cocky either. It is much harder to find permission near to large centers of population because farmers get a lot of ruffians turning up asking to shoot so they have an instant hostility to yet another stranger wanting to go around their property with a gun. You may well do better if you try further from the cities. Good luck.

Try asking at the local butchers - the old fashioned High Street kind, not Sainsburys. I asked at mine once and he offered me £2 for skinned an decent head shot rabbits. However, the trouble of skinning and presenting them nicely was far too much for that price. I shot 43 yesterday and left 37 on the ground. You might find that at this time of year there are so many available that no one wants them. sad really as they are good eating. Last year the same butcher I am talking about said he sold them for £7 each.

Interesting discussion. Isn't it ridiculous that the police in this country are allowed to re-define the language, dictate in minute detail what supposedly 'free men' are allowed to do on private land with the permission of the land owner, and funniest of all, that we are prepared to dance on a pin at their whims? Nowhere do the firearms acts say a thing about what caliber weapon must be used to shoot a fox. The police are supposed to uphold the law - not make it. This country has gone right to the dogs and the cops have FAR TOO MUCH POWER - WE must be mad to put up with it. Better just admit it. We live in a police state and we accept it and suck up anything they say. In the English language, in literature and in common usage, the fox is frequently described as vermin. No court would rule anything other than that a man who had a certificate condition that allowed him to shoot vermin could legally shoot a fox. Since the law does not specify as it does for deer, a minimum caliber for fox and since some forces will gladly hand out an HMR for fox, no case could be brought and succeed against a man who shot a fox unless his certificate specifically stated 'NOT FOR FOX'. Neither could they legally withdraw your certificate in my opinion. None of the above has any relevance to the question of whether the caliber in question is the best one to use, it is just a comment on the ever increasing officiousness and powers of the police to interfere in normal life without proper legal backing and support in the actual law. The only contribution that police should be able to make in this respect is on the question of whether you have good reason to possess an HMR for the purpose of fox destruction. Since that allows for a matter of opinion to decide it (subject to judicial review if you disagree with them) they might reasonably decide that you don't have a good reason to possess one, and suggest a centre fire rifle (which would probably be better suited anyway).

How about you can shoot it all day for a fiver and put it away in the safe without cleaning it? I doubt I've put a patch down the barrel of my CZ more than twice in a season, and it still produces ragged hole groups at fifty yards with eley subs. It even produced a sixty-five yard group of two with stingers that was a centimeter across last week, but I suspect that was a fluke. I'd been sighting it in again after dropping it when I fell into a rabbit warren as the ground gave away and was very annoyed because I couldn't see the holes. I thought I'd missed the target altogether until I walked up and found they were all in the 1 cm black.

That's interesting Noel, but I'm just wondering if such handiwork might effect accuracy. I'd have thought that any minor differences in the placement of the cuts would affect the way the bullet flies, and speaking for myself, I think I'd be almost sure to have variations in the cuts from round to round. Was the bullet already of expanding type - like a hollow point with additional cuts? Where did you hit the foxes? I expect that a .22 in the head at 40 yards would drop them anyway. I've heard of slaughter men dropping dangerous bulls with a .22 when called out to destroy an animal on the farm that was running amok. Special Forces have for some time used silenced sub sonic .22s to quietly kill sentries and guard dogs at close range, and I'm not talking about putting the gun on the head of the target either.

The best thing is that one man made it out of lumps of old iron and a plank of wood. How often is anything ever made like that anymore? A man who can do things like that is a prince among men. Me - I can just about sharpen a stick with a pen knife.

I just had the misfortune of having a farmer and his wife standing over me while I shot at five rabbits this afternoon. Boody awful pressure that. There I am chatting politely near their door after a good afternoon, and she says, 'Look at them (pointing at troop of bunnies sitting about sixty yards off in the sunshine) Go on, get them.' Reluctantly, I loaded the rifle and had to perform with their cheers and then their boos when the pressure got to me, and I missed a couple of shots. 'That's not supposed to happen,' shouts the farmer, 'It's running away'. Cringe.... Some day evil I'll relate my story about the dead lamb bait, Fox and audience in the sheep pen where I was staked out :blink: :yp: That would be a worse pressure, since there is something at stake there if you missed it and scared it off.

I just had the misfortune of having a farmer and his wife standing over me while I shot at five rabbits this afternoon. Boody awful pressure that. There I am chatting politely near their door after a good afternoon, and she says, 'Look at them (pointing at troop of bunnies sitting about sixty yards off in the sunshine) Go on, get them.' Reluctantly, I loaded the rifle and had to perform with their cheers and then their boos when the pressure got to me, and I missed a couple of shots. 'That's not supposed to happen,' shouts the farmer, 'It's running away'. Cringe....

Just shot 43 good sized rabbits this afternoon with the CZ 425. Used stingers on about a third of them and eley subs on the rest. To be honest, the eleys are cheap and very effective up to about 50 yards. They are deadly a lot futher than that, but holdover starts to raise its ugly head. I have the sight set up for the stingers - aim dead on between about 30 and 75 yards. The Eleys hit a lot lower, but I have found that with the scope set on maximum magnification, when the rabbit is between 20 and 50 yards, if I place its head or chest in the 30 30 reticule below the cross just on top of the lower thick vertical post, it's a certain instant kill every time. This lower post thing doesn't work with other magnifications though. I'll need to think of why but I'm too tired just now. I think this will work well for me - subs for nearby; stingers for far off. Certainly sorted a good few today.

That's an interesting question since even with the lowly Stingers, rabbits are pretty well blown up at under 70 yards. Shot some young 'uns the other day at about 50 yards and just aimed at the middle of them. They were blown up with excrement all over the shop - burst right open. I didn't even pick them up they were such a mess. Of course the other thing about the 223 is that apart from its power, it is more or less a flat shooter to way out ranges. After experiencing rabbit shooting with an an air rifle a couple of years back, that is such a luxury.

A comedian might say - Thumb? That's nothing, I know a man who cast and fired his own todger. He thought was great but his wife didn't. She looked at the twelve bore barrel and said to her friend, 'See what I've had o put up wi' all these years.' 'I sympathise, said her friend, 'but look on the bright side. At least he wasn't shooting it out of a 410.'

Reading this takes me back to the 1980s when I was in a club that shot all kinds of repro weapons and most of the guys were reloading 45/70 with black powder and home cast bullets. That kind of shooting was so much fun and interesting to a dabbler like me, although I only ever reloaded .303, and even then I only made about hundred and used a tiny Lee hand tool. It was probably a bit dangerous I always thought as I tapped in the bullet onto a primed and loaded case.

He was firing solid slugs in home loads. One of them just clicked loudly (probably no powder - primer pushed the slug up the tube) and the following shot came up behind a slug stuck in the barrel. This was in the days when you could have five shot pump action guns. He was blazing away with this thing and click (cycle) boom (burst barrel) and really close shave.

I was once standing next to a guy whose twelve bore pump action blew up. There were jagged bits of metal everywhere, mostly, peeled back from the barrel in every direction and fortunately still attached. It was a salutary lesson. It opened up like a banana skin in strips and peeled itself. I will never fool about with any firearm since then. He was making his own slug gun when that happened. It could have done all or any of the things Henry mentioned, and not only to him since I was a yard away from the event.

I remember those days too. I worked on a Saturday job in shop and was paid One pound ten shillings or £1.50 in today's money. The real comparison though anser2 is in what these things cost in the United States. We pay at least double what they do for many gun related products. Deals with single importing companies who become the UK single source, allow massive uncompetitive ripoff. The fact that we may have paid even more than twice the real cost in the past does not mean that today's prices are good value by world standards. UK consumers are often cheated by retailers who price American made products as dollar for pound. You can buy Levi jeans in New York for a tenner that retail here at five times the price. Same issue with European cars as we all know. If you buy your Audi or VW in Germany you can save 25% so it seems. It is time we buyers rose up and stopped the cynical exploitation that has been going on here for more than a generation. We must be stupid to have allowed it for so long.

I agree with you. I went out last night and shot 13 rabbits in a bit over an hour. All of them were at 65 yards and over including an 80 yard off hand shot at a rabbit that died in an instant hit in the chest. I could not do that with the more accurate eley subs because the hold over issue in the late evening becomes harder as you lose distance cues and have to start guessing. They are pretty loud, but even so, I got four adult rabbits from the river bank that were sitting in a field 70 yards from me and thinking that since they couldn't see me, I couldn't be there. Unfortunately for them, I was and they just keeled over stone dead one at a time. The stinger is an instant killer with a chest shot. The heart and lungs are totally smashed by the 1640 fps hollowpoint. That troublesome Irish guy Rick O'Shay is an ever present issue though if the ground is hard. Fortunately after the rain we've had not one did anything but pass through the rabbit and bury itself in the dirt.

Apparently, in the 'War on Terror', the average expenditure of ammunition for a hit is 50,000 rounds. I read somewhere that in WW2 it was 200 rounds for a dead enemy. How you doing buddy .Not heard from you in years but then again I've been quiet on here over the last several months. I'm fine. Just enjoying a glut of rabbits and reawakening my interest in shooting sports.

Ah - thanks for that Bob. It's peeing down here or I'd be out shooting rabbits instead of wasting time on the couch.

Yeah - I love the look of it. It is tube fed and it holds eleven rounds. Viking Arms the importer say the recommended price is £408, but it is up to the dealer and discounts can be had. 25 pence a shot then.... It's a bit much for the number of rabbits I'm shooting just now. I can knock off forty a day easily and when I say day, I'm talking maybe three hours or four. However, I'm easily able to get those with the 22LR. The Henry would be for long ones and if I'm honest, because I want one. Yes - on the mod. The whole idea of that cowboy gun would be ruined by a mod. Doesn't do a lot for my CZ either. I got the rather quaintly styled European stock, long barrel and shnurle fore end.

How much are you paying for HMR Rabbithunter? Also, what's the price of HM2 if you can help out with that ? I'm quite interested in the Henry Varmiter Express. To my mind it's a lovely looking rifle and quite well thought of in the States. Kind of reminds me of the old Winchester 9422 I used to have in .22WMR back in the mid 1980s. I sorely wish I'd kept that gun, but I sold it one winter when I needed some cash for a stupid project I had going. The Henry comes in 17HMR and is something I think I would enjoy owning and using. It wouldn't take a mod but then I don't suppose there's any point in putting a mod on an HMR because the sonic crack would be loud anyhow. Anyhow, I find my further off rabbits don't seem to react to the stinger's loud crack that much. I had a couple with it that were sitting side by said the day before yesterday. I see you and I share the same county Rabbithunter.

No - I haven't any experience of them at all. I'm thinking of applying for a 17 HMR variation. I fancy the Henry Varmiter Express rfile in HMR. Only trouble is the cost of the ammo. It looks like £13 a box at the local dealer which is well over twice the Stinger cost. I know the HMR is very accurate and flat... I just need to weigh up the advantages over the cost. I used to shoot .22 WMR which was a lovely flat shooting round, but again, really expensive. To be honest, the Stinger has extended my reach pretty well, and is a cert at 80 yards. It is more prone to wind which is a pity since my most productive shooting is at 1000 to 1300 feet above sea level on windy northern hillsides. The HMR would be affected by wind too, so I'm not sure it would be that advantageous. It is wind and the variability of it that usually limits my shooting range. How do you factor in a gusty 18 mile an hour side wind at 75 yards? This target shows the side drift of a 15 mph wind at 75 yards. I was shooting at the left hand upper target, then the wind lulled for the final shot and it came in an inch to the left of the others.

Apparently, in the 'War on Terror', the average expenditure of ammunition for a hit is 50,000 rounds. I read somewhere that in WW2 it was 200 rounds for a dead enemy.

Lately I've been experimenting with stingers in my CZ 425. I have a fair bit of pest control and I felt like I needed a flatter shooting round than the outstanding Eley subs that I'd used since I bought the gun in 2006. The Eley is supremely accurate and quieter than an air gun with a sound mod on the barrel, but at longer ranges with variable terrain, I sometimes have problems judging the holdover required. On paper, the more or less half inch rise and fall between 35 and 75 yards in a rifle zeroed at 70 yards of this 1640 fps round seemed to make this cartridge fit the bill. I can judge whether a rabbit is somewhere between 35 and 75 yards and put the cross right in the middle of his head, but how would it perform in the field? I bought a few boxes and fired most of the first one just zeroing the scope. This round has a poi about 2.5 inches higher than an Eley sub at 50 yards. Part of my problem was that the Tasco scope I have seems to have an interaction between the horizontal and the vertical elements in the reticule. Get it right for elevation, then move it a touch left and the bloody thing starts hitting off the target so start again bonny lad. I'm sure it's a fault and not endemic in the scope itself. Once zeroed, I set about testing the groups. The stinger is not as accurate a round as the Eley Sub. Well you all knew that anyhow. How could it be? The sub will give a ragged hole at fifty yards on a calm day, whereas the stinger is about an inch at fifty yards as far as I'm concerned anyway. It is also a LOT louder. Surprisingly, it doesn't scare the rabbits as much as you might think, especially the longer range ones which suddenly become easy prey with the shiny silver cartridge. Where the stinger really counts though is in its phenomenal knock down power. It literally blows up the heads of young rabbits so you end up finding two ears dangling either side of a red pulpy mess that used to be the head. This is not that surprising when you consider the velocity difference. At sixty yards, the Stinger has 122 foot pounds of energy and is still traveling at 1309 fps. The energy at 120 yards is about the same as an Eley sub is at the muzzle. On Monday afternoon, I went out to one of my favourite shoots, four small farms in the North Pennines that are crawling with rabbits. During a lull, while having a cereal bar, I set up a target sheet on an earthen bank sixty paces from a nice little mound that made prone shooting a breeze. I fired off five rounds and got a pretty good group nicely centred on the target. When I inspected the results, I realised that I would be able to recover the bullets from the sandy turf behind the card. They had ploughed their way deeply into the ground about two inches below the surface and I probed away with my fingers down the mouse hole sized cavity and managed to find three of the bullets. It was a surprise how far they had penetrated, the last was at least a foot into the ground, though admittedly, it had an easy start, shooting down the hole already made by the earlier rounds. The photograph below shows the target in situ, with the excavation of the bullet channel visible behind the top right target. The other thing to notice is that even though the bullets had mushroomed into a very lethal shape, they had retained all their mass. This is the big problem with the .22LR round, the bullets stay together and ricochets are likely and consist of a full weight bullet even if it is flat as a pancake All in all, I like this round and will be buying more, even though they do cost a good bit more than some others. Always annoying to me is that when you google Stinger or any other American shooting product, you'll find it on sale over there at about half the cost we Brits are asked to pay. I was looking for a Henry Varmiter Express the other day. On sale in America at £258, but here, £406. What a ripoff that is, same as the ammo, only the ammo is worse since it doesn't need to be sent off for proof like a rifle does.

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