Diceman Posted December 6, 2009 Report Share Posted December 6, 2009 http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol...icle6946643.ece For once....words fail me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 What an absolute load of tripe. My Grandad was a Lewis Gunner in the First World War. He spoke very little of his war time experience, but I do remember him telling me about the Lewis Gun, that he had fought in France, was taken prisoner, escaped with others, was re captured, betrayed by a French man and that he was fed "black bread"? by the Germans and that he and his fellow prisoners routinly trapped rats and ate them. He died shortly before his 100th. birthday. PC whingers should remember what men who have gone before them endured and how they survived. In my minds eye I can see and hear Grandad now, the air is full of profanity, and the coal hammer has just missed the telly! webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 What an absolute load of tripe. My Grandad was a Lewis Gunner in the First World War. He spoke very little of his war time experience, but I do remember him telling me about the Lewis Gun, that he had fought in France, was taken prisoner, escaped with others, was re captured, betrayed by a French man and that he was fed "black bread"? by the Germans and that he and his fellow prisoners routinly trapped rats and ate them. He died shortly before his 100th. birthday. PC whingers should remember what men who have gone before them endured and how they survived. In my minds eye I can see and hear Grandad now, the air is full of profanity, and the coal hammer has just missed the telly! webber Yes but there arguement was that it wasnt the same situation. What your granded and his men did was eat the rats to survive, there saying that on Ima Celeb, its just a tv show and there not really in danger, so there was no need to kill and eat the rat Its just a rat tbh lol, think people need to loosen up and shut up! haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Not to play devils advocate, but I think its damn right it should be looked into, many developed countries including our own have laws about killing animals for theatrical use, and so we should too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 many developed countries including our own have laws about killing animals for theatrical use, and so we should too. But they did eat it, it wasn't just killed for show. ? Nial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) But they did eat it, it wasn't just killed for show. ? Nial. Doesn't matter imo, its a game show, although many things are border line I agree, like Ray Mears etc but often its a native showing their hunting techniques. The point is whether the animal was killed humanely and whether it was neccesary, apparently neither. Edited December 7, 2009 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinea Fowl Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 The point is whether the animal was killed humanely and whether it was neccesary, Are you taking the **** here? you do know we are talking about a rat here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Are you taking the **** here? you do know we are talking about a rat here. It makes no difference, all animals deserve respect whether they are quarry, vermin etc. If you are going to kill one it should be as humanely as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) Why don't we all turn vegan, scrap all of out guns and traps and leave the little fluffy animals to take over the world? For God's sake, this was a RAT! Edited December 7, 2009 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I didn't see it but what is the cruel bit? from the story so far he cut its head off and ate it. Cutting its head off should be termed as humane and isn't that far from Halal slaughter so where does the cruel bit come in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) Are you taking the **** here? you do know we are talking about a rat here. And? So we shouldn't have laws to protect the million or so rodents from pain and suffering used in research either? Edited December 7, 2009 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I didn't see it but what is the cruel bit? from the story so far he cut its head off and ate it. Cutting its head off should be termed as humane and isn't that far from Halal slaughter so where does the cruel bit come in. I do think Halal is cruel, but its a legally sanctioned cruelty, decapitation isn't considered a humane method of killing in this country, for slaughter purposes or euthanasia. I have no issue with them killing an animal for food if they were starving, but they weren't and they are on a gameshow, thats the crux of the legality which is my main point, not the ethics of the killing. It matters not whether it was a rat or a puppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I think you'll find they were on reduced rations of rice and beans. I also understand that the killing and cooking of the rat was not televised it was only the the eating of the cooked dish. I do agree that laws should exist to protect animals from cruelty but I don't see this as cruelty. If anyone should be responsible for this, it should be ITV who have obviously not been clear about what they can and can't do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I think you'll find they were on reduced rations of rice and beans. I also understand that the killing and cooking of the rat was not televised it was only the the eating of the cooked dish. I do agree that laws should exist to protect animals from cruelty but I don't see this as cruelty. If anyone should be responsible for this, it should be ITV who have obviously not been clear about what they can and can't do. Fair enough, but they are on a gameshow, they wouldn't be allowed to starve, but again, thats not my point, the legality is the point, the animal was put there by the sounds of it, or the investigation is looking into whether the animal was put there by the producers. The guidelines are pretty clear that animals killed for theatrical use have to be pre-determined and sanctioned as a foodstuff, and killed humanely....simple. The cruelty bit comes into the method of killing, another angle being investigated is whether the rat was dead before it was decapitated, as I've said before decapitation isn't humane. I find it unnerving that a few posters feel as though its impossible to be cruel to a rat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinea Fowl Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 It makes no difference, all animals deserve respect whether they are quarry, vermin etc. If you are going to kill one it should be as humanely as possible. Well, do you want to tell me that rat poison is humane, it`s one of the worst ways to go! but I agree to some extend and I see what you are trying to say. I do think Halal is cruel, but its a legally sanctioned cruelty, decapitation isn't considered a humane method of killing in this country, for slaughter purposes or euthanasia. The scientific facts A team at the university of Hannover in Germany examined these claims through the use of EEG and ECG records during slaughter. Several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all the animals used in the experiment and they were then allowed to recover for several weeks. Some of the animals were subsequently slaughtered the halal way by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides together with the trachea and esophagus but leaving the spinal cord intact. The remainder were stunned before slaughter using a captive bolt pistol method as is customary in Western slaughterhouses. The EEG and ECG recordings allowed to monitor the condition of the brain and heart throughout. The Halal method With the halal method of slaughter, there was not change in the EEG graph for the first three seconds after the incision was made, indicating that the animal did not feel any pain from the cut itself. This is not surprising. Often, if we cut ourselves with a sharp implement, we do not notice until some time later. The following three seconds were characterised by a condition of deep sleep-like unconciousness brought about by the draining of large quantities of blood from the body. Thereafter the EEG recorded a zero reading, indicating no pain at all, yet at that time the heart was still beating and the body convulsing vigorously as a reflex reaction of the spinal cord. It is this phase which is most unpleasant to onlookers who are falsely convinced that the animal suffers whilst its brain does actually no longer record any sensual messages. The Western method Using the Western method, the animals were apparently unconscious after stunning, and this method of dispatch would appear to be much more peaceful for the onlooker. However, the EEG readings indicated severe pain immediately after stunning. Whereas in the first example, the animal ceases to feel pain due to the brain starvation of blood and oxygen – a brain death, to put it in laymen’s terms – the second example first causes a stoppage of the heart whilst the animal still feels pain. However, there are no unsightly convulsions, which not only means that there is more blood retention in the meat, but also that this method lends itself much more conveniently to the efficiency demands of modern mass slaughter procedures. It is so much easier to dispatch an animal on the conveyor belt, if it does not move. Appearances can deceive Not all is what it seems, then. Those who want to outlaw Islamic slaughter, arguing for a humane method of killing animals for food, are actually more concerned about the feelings of people than those of the animals on whose behalf they appear to speak. The stunning method makes mass butchery easier and looks more palatable for the consumer who can deceive himself that the animal did not feel any pain when he goes to buy his cleanly wrapped parcel of meat from the supermarket. Islamic slaughter, on the other hand, does not try to deny that meat consumption means that animals have to die, but is designed to ensure that their loss of life is achieved with a minimum amount of pain. The holistic view Modern Western farming and slaughter, on the other hand, aims at the mass consumer market and treats the animal as a commodity. Just as battery hens are easier for large-scale egg production, Western slaughter methods are easier for the meat industry, but they do neither the animal nor the end consumer any favours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) Guinea fowl, I agree about the poisoning, totally, but thats where the neccessity comes in, a sanctioned act of cruelty, do you see? We can't just have people on family fortunes or whatever stamping on kittens. The Halal debate is a long one, a lot of work carried out is often flawed, if you search the new scientist website or any animal welfare site the info you have quoted is contrasted, but not neccessarily wrong. There is much data contradicting each study which is common in science, the argument about the sleep like trance due to blood loss has raged for years, humans who have lost a lot of blood, and become in a state of hypovolaemic shock have often reported the massive increase of heart rate to compensate for the low blood pressure similar to a severe panic attack, severe headaches and a myriad of other symptoms, I happen to believe that if a human feels these senstations, animals do too. I think the info you have quoted is mis-quoted, scientific facts rewritten. For example if anyone has seen animals slaughtered in a conventional manner the animal convulses for a considerable time and violently, which the quoted info states doesn't happen. (Did you get the info from a pro halal website? Link would be interesting) Bear in mind I think its cruel from experience, professional judgement and being anthropomorphic. Halal killing isn't performed on the basis of ethics, its peformed because of the religious belief that a wounded animal (IE stunned by electroconvulsion/carbon dioxide or captive bolt) shouldn't be eaten, thats the ethical debate as Halal killing is lawful. Kyska Edited December 7, 2009 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjobill Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 if i cant behead a rat is shooting one with a .17hmr leagal?? certificate says its for vermin control, does that include using blanks to dart the rat with a seditave before removing it to a slaughterhouse BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) if i cant behead a rat is shooting one with a .17hmr leagal?? certificate says its for vermin control, does that include using blanks to dart the rat with a seditave before removing it to a slaughterhouse BB Don't get you, shooting vermin is legal obviously, there is such a fine line between killing something and being unreasonably cruel. I presume the slaughterhouse comment is tongue in cheek, but don't really get your point. In context, if you went to a petshop on a regular basis and bought pet rodents and beheaded them in the carpark and ate them, chances are the police and/or a psychiatrist will want words with you, I just think capturing (possibly) an animal placed on the set on a TV gameshow and doing the same is questionable...does no-one get my gist?. Shooting rats on farm isn't really going to cause many issues, a question of necessity again. Edited December 7, 2009 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I do think Halal is cruel, but its a legally sanctioned cruelty, decapitation isn't considered a humane method of killing in this country, for slaughter purposes or euthanasia. I have no issue with them killing an animal for food if they were starving, but they weren't and they are on a gameshow, thats the crux of the legality which is my main point, not the ethics of the killing. It matters not whether it was a rat or a puppy. isn't the legality different entirely to whether it was cruel or not, I don't have to kill to eat but I have given more than a couple of pheasants a stick to the bonce after picking them pricked on driven days, not sure this is better or worse than having the head removed. Severing the spinal cord to me though is very humane whatever slaughter policy is. I know Australians on a few forums have been complaining about their liberal leftie minister for the environment I think it is who used to be an animal rights activist and appears to prefer animals to humans so stories like this just add to their desperation and show real pressure from antis over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 isn't the legality different entirely to whether it was cruel or not, I don't have to kill to eat but I have given more than a couple of pheasants a stick to the bonce after picking them pricked on driven days, not sure this is better or worse than having the head removed. Severing the spinal cord to me though is very humane whatever slaughter policy is. I know Australians on a few forums have been complaining about their liberal leftie minister for the environment I think it is who used to be an animal rights activist and appears to prefer animals to humans so stories like this just add to their desperation and show real pressure from antis over there. Absoulutely, again in context, I'm a registered slaughterman, among other veterinary qualifications (I'm not a vet) and I've killed hundreds of animals but not eaten them. Beheading and incised severance of the spinal cord isn't humane, you killing a bird by concussion is, breaking the neck of a rodent is humane also, as the brain stem has been destroyed causing unconciousness immediately, these are important facts to the legality of the killing along with other possibly mitigated factors around this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Doesn't matter imo, its a game show, although many things are border line I agree, like Ray Mears etc but often its a native showing their hunting techniques. The point is whether the animal was killed humanely and whether it was neccesary, apparently neither. I think the main point has being missed here.....they are in Australia, they have different Laws, & one has being crossed here. The question whether they were starving or not, how it was killed, or, cooked, Rat or otherwise doesn't come into it, it was on a game show, & it looks like the Law has being broken. BJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 I think the main point has being missed here.....they are in Australia, they have different Laws, & one has being crossed here. The question whether they were starving or not, how it was killed, or, cooked, Rat or otherwise doesn't come into it, it was on a game show, & it looks like the Law has being broken. BJ. You're dead righ BJ, one of my points was that its also illegal to do the same in this country, but paradoxically we are allowed to be cruel to animals with the correct legal authority and necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) i see what your all saying but personally the show should be facing the charges as they had ample oppertunities to step in and prevent the law from been broken, they would have a legal team of some sort who could have advised surely and seems as most the crew are natives you would think one of them would have known what can and can't be done the show let it go on for ratings and the contestants were not advised properly. on the other hand surely there are not too many more qualified to kill an animal than a fully trained chef! Edited December 7, 2009 by bicykillgaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 (edited) i see what your all saying but personally the show should be facing the charges as they had ample oppertunities to step in and prevent the law from been broken, they would have a legal team of some sort who could have advised surely and seems as most the crew are natives you would think one of them would have known what can and can't be done the show let it go on for ratings and the contestants were not advised properly. on the other hand surely there are not too many more qualified to kill an animal than a fully trained chef! Quite, although I think the chef should be done if anyone, ignorance is no defence.... Although I don't know of any chef who would know how to kill anything other than crabs and lobsters. Edited December 7, 2009 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Maybe it was some rare breed of rat they scoffed. The only cruelty in the whole affair was that it shared the same jungle as that shower of ****e. That or it was one of Jordans Love Rats. Bit rich from a country where you can set out in a pickup with yer Cobbers and a bunch of tinnies and set about the 'Roos and pigs with impunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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