Wesman Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I'd have no issue buying a dog without papers as long as I knew that dog was from good working stock (ie I'd seen the parents work). How many keepers register their pups anyway? I want my dog for working, not trialling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 what was the reason the dog wasnt registered in the first place ? I would think that the only people that would buy a pup are people that know you and the dog and the bitch he is mated with. The paper doesnt make him a better dog but buying a dog without papers is like buying a car without a log book and some breeders are only in it for the money and will tell you what ever you want to here...Bred to work,keeper bred,etc etc are reasons some people use to pass on dogs that have had accidental matings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONO Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 RC It was your problem that you didn't buy a dog with kc papers, you put yourself on the backfoot instantly, struggle to breed,no known family history, aswell as not being able to trial. its not the KC fault its yourself to blame and the breeder for not registering them. I am not saying you are in the wrong and i am not questioning the dogs ability he looks spot on, its only a piece of paperwork in my eyes, and paper doesn't make a great grafter, but paperwork is important to alot of people. Actually I got him free - a re-housing from a chap who bought him to work but didn't have the time. As to why the underkeeper didn't register the litter gawd knows... perhaps the litter was with from unregistered parents, perhaps he didn't have the cash etc etc. All that concerns me is that I've trained up a decent, healthy and cracking dog whose line I wish to continue in the face of KC snobbery. It could be said that if the KC hadn't have put so many offspring over their own mothers/sisters etc across all breeds then this wouldn't have been an issue in the first place! I do appreciate the comments guys, Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Sorry, I can only imagine you mis-read my post which was about doing exactly the thing you said I shouldn't do as I don't have the thing you refer to but wished me luck anyway for. ok.. thats gotta be a contender for most confusing post of 2010 :hmm: youre picking me up wrong mate, i know your dog doesnt have papers, but as it was bred by a keeper somewhere (too lazy to refer back to original post) i would assume it would be a simple enough matter to get in touch with the keeper/breeders and find out who the parents were, and if theyre kc reg. if they are kc reg then its very simple to see their ancestry's, so as long as you breed with a kc bitch (and so can check her ancestry) then you shouldnt have any interbreeding problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chandelierman Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Do you know for sure from the previous owner that the dog has no papers? i recently gave away to a friend a top pedigree English bull terrier for free,he is KC registered but i did not give the new owner the papers. By doing this he has little value so i know the owner wants him for himself and not to take him and sell him for profit,maybe the person that gave you your dog could have done the same thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 KC registration will help BUT it's open to abuse and fraud...who fills out the papers?...the breeder of course...and who (usually) knows which dog mated which bitch?... the breeder of course...and who's in the best position to swap one dog for another?...the breeder of course! Don't say it doesn't happen because it does and until every KC dog is required to prove it's parentage via DNA the frauds and the scandal will continue. The KC isn't really a working dog organisation and is more concerned with show breed aspects but it's the only fully recognised 'stud' book it's just a shame it's so open to abuse. Anyway if you've a good looking, good working animal why worry about its KC registration. Know the parents, know something about its history and if you think you've got a good 'un be proud of it! Personally I wouldn't breed from an animal that had any hereditary problems and I don't think anyone should in an effort to improve the breeds overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 How many keepers register their pups anyway? I want my dog for working, not trialling. most that I know tend to simply because they are into their dogs and tend to breed from them so like to have a well bred dog with a traceable history. Also registered dogs are worth more and most keepers I know breed to subsidise their income as well as have new working dogs coming along. The main issue is the OP can't find anyone to pimp his dog to, what might be more productive is a post asking if anyone has a Springer they'd like to put to the dog rather than just moan that no one wants to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickyspringer Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Alex I second that second part of your post, Imstead of moaning just ask if anyone wants to use a good working dog who is proven in the field and you want to continue his line. Someone will use him, I have a friend in the Midlands who may be interested in the coming months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONO Posted January 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 The main issue is the OP can't find anyone to pimp his dog to, what might be more productive is a post asking if anyone has a Springer they'd like to put to the dog rather than just moan that no one wants to A fair and well made point. I have put the word about for a while and, having come up against this obstacle on a few occasions, wanted to have a moan at the KC's hegemony and the blind faith folk credit it with. As mentioned I have sung Ollies virtues and that I would obviously keen to hear of anyone in the area with a similar title-less bitch of good working strain who is looking to breed. Once again I appreciate the comments. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windy Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 she's a good age mate, I'd go for it, she's not too old and you want to breed her because she's a good example. Shows your not in it for the money as some people would of had 3 litters out of her by now. If you don't mind me asking what lines is she from and what are you wanting to put to her?? Think 7 is the oldest age but i'm not 100% sure. Let us know on your plans RS Dont know if you'll be able to read this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 doesn't that pedigree show a fair amount of interbreeding? Is that an acceptable level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windy Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Dont know. That said, only Badgercourt Moss in repetition at great, great 'whatever they're called'. Certainly no problems to date, apart from being a nutter from time to time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickyspringer Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 No "in breeding there" maybe abit of line breeding to Badgercourt Moss who was a good dog with good ftch credentials, pedigree looks fine, the 5th generation will be more impressive. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windy Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 ah I was looking at two of the 2nd generation having the same mother and four of the 3rd generation having the same father, may not be inbreeding by Suffolk standards but surely its getting close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 (edited) If you can get a better pedigree than this - good luck, but as someone has pointed out - it is only as good as the person filling in the paperwork. Almost meaningless. Sorry - triplicate pedigrees. Edited January 7, 2010 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 cant read it gordon ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Hi, I own a cracking 7 year old springer called Ollie - who came from a litter raised by the underkeeper at Badminton Estate Good hunter, good wildfowler, picking up, rough shooter etc etc But, and this is the crunch for most, he didn't come with papers. He's a cracking pet, soft-natured and as gentle as it is to be around (small) kids... zero health problems to date. The KC took a pasting last year over their breeding practices and recommendations and I'm irritated that a) the breed standard for ESS are so removed from the dogs doing that role in the field -ie he's from working stock. But thats an aside and what really gets my goat and what this post is about is b ) Why should he have to have flipping papers in order to pass on some excellent genes?! Anyhoo - as his boss I really want to do right by him and put him over a similar bitch for the pick of the litter If there is anyone out there (ideally within a trip of Bristol) with similar problems or an unregistered good-working bitch then get in touch. The pups would be marvellous Jon jono - your dog looks a cracker mate , if my bitch was a little older i,d be very tempted hope some one takes up your offer good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 If you can get a better pedigree than this - good luck, but as someone has pointed out - it is only as good as the person filling in the paperwork. Almost meaningless. Sorry - triplicate pedigrees. Are those champions "FTCH`S" or show champions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mec 9000 Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 In my opinion KC papers are hardly worth the paper they are printed on, yes they give an indication of what you are buying, they increase the price of the pup and they allow entry to trials or shows but at the end of the day you pay your money and take your chances. Buying from known working stock without a doubt will increase your chances of getting a working pup. If you are in shooting circles there is always the chance that someone will wish to use your dog and others will ask for pups for shooting purposes. You will find that the genetic pool is not that great in either show or working dogs so the chances are that your dog has been bred from a good line and there is no reason why you cannot start your dogs pedigree from now for your dogs future offspring. Get some books and read up on genetics and what you might look for in your dogs, remember the KC started somewhere along the line. I think the KC will not register dogs when the mother is over 8yrs old. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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