FAC shotgun?

[Weihrauch17]

I see absolutely no benefit of an FAC Shotgun for Vermin control.  I shoot Pigeons and Crows with a 3 shot Benelli and if I get to the third shot they are almost always out of range or on the very edge of it.  By my eighth shot they would be hundreds of yards away🤣  Not sure where there are any Rabbits in plague numbers these days, very few and far between and have been for years.

Edited October 30 by Weihrauch17

[Scully]

On 29/10/2024 at 21:16, enfieldspares said:

…..the Wildlife and Countryside Act restricts the magazine capacity of self-loading guns to two for most "sporting" quarry that isn't classed as vermin.

 

The WCA, and or vermin control, are the only valid ‘good reason’ for live quarry shooting.
As you say, it is illegal to shoot game species with a S1, including fowl. The only exception I’m aware of is Hare, if I recall. 

[Dafid69]

Hi. Got the slot for fac shotgun.

On the conditions just says use on land perms and it also says can be used for clay shooting but I have a gun for that..

This is for live quarry. 👍

 

 

On 29/10/2024 at 16:38, London Best said:

A friend of mine had a chap wanted to shoot a Canada Goose. 
Friend built a hide and deployed the decoys. 
Chap turned up with an 8 shot FAC jobbie. 
Geese came in to the decoys and my friend had to hold FAC man down to prevent him jumping up too early. When the geese were virtually on the ground he released him, only for the chap to rip off all 8 shots as fast as possible with no effect, whereupon my friend took his usual R&L with his old SxS non-ejector and packed up.

Haha.. yeh I hate premature shooters lol.

I usually goose shoot on my own and when they've gone they've gone for the day.

So a few good shots without having to reload would be a Brucie bonus.

But not a sporadic panic to empty the gun. You don't have to finish off the mag lol

 

[Scully]

51 minutes ago, Dafid69 said:

Hi. Got the slot for fac shotgun.

On the conditions just says use on land perms and it also says can be used for clay shooting but I have a gun for that..

This is for live quarry. 👍

 

 

Haha.. yeh I hate premature shooters lol.

I usually goose shoot on my own and when they've gone they've gone for the day.

So a few good shots without having to reload would be a Brucie bonus.

But not a sporadic panic to empty the gun. You don't have to finish off the mag lol

 

It is illegal to shoot geese and ducks with a S1 shotgun in the UK. 

[Dafid69]

On 02/11/2024 at 16:38, Scully said:

It is illegal to shoot geese and ducks with a S1 shotgun in the UK. 

I put that very use on goose in my application. Also a section 1 shotgun uses the same ammunition as any other.

So if it's illegal could you please explain why?

 

Think of a s2 semi holding 3 or a s1 holding 6 

What's the difference to make it illegal.

I know we have some odd laws but cartridge capacity seems odd.. 

Please reply I'm surprised by your response. 👍

Just read somewhere there maybe confusion amongst us 

Mine is a magnum steel proofed and can shoot bismuth so it should be legal 👍 

Also like I put down on my vary app

GOOSE, CROP PRODUCTION, VERMIN & PEST 

And just to clarify I have not used the gun yet so broken no laws as to its use. I will double check with RFD beforehand on picking up my ammo 👍

Edited November 6 by Dafid69

[eightlittlebits]

41 minutes ago, Dafid69 said:

So if it's illegal could you please explain why?

 

Quote

Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 

Part 1 Section 5 (1) (c) (iii):

Subject to the provisions of this Part, if any person uses for the purpose of killing or taking any wild bird any automatic or semi-automatic weapon; he shall be guilty of an offence.

Part 1 Section 27 (1):

In this Part, unless the context otherwise requires

“automatic weapon” and “semi-automatic weapon” do not include any weapon the magazine of which is incapable of holding more than two rounds;

So, an offence to kill any wild bird with an semi-automatic weapon with a magazine capable of holding more than 2 rounds, or, S1.

Edited November 6 by eightlittlebits

[rbrowning2]

+1

 

 

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, eightlittlebits said:

 

So, an offence to kill any wild bird with an semi-automatic weapon with a magazine capable of holding more than 2 rounds, or, S1.

THIS! Indeed legally you cannot use a Ruger 10/22 for culling cock pheasants on 1 February unless the magazine has a "pin" or "stop" to prevent it holding more than two cartridges. I have an idea...see below...that our UK law came to align us with European law?

Certainly outside of the UK I have seen French magazines for the legendary Unique X51 bis (which I owned one once) made at the factory with only a two shot capacity. This done by the back leg of the follower being made longer that on a standard five shot magazine.

Edited November 6 by enfieldspares

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Dafid69 said:

I put that very use on goose in my application. Also a section 1 shotgun uses the same ammunition as any other.

So if it's illegal could you please explain why?

 

Think of a s2 semi holding 3 or a s1 holding 6 

What's the difference to make it illegal.

I know we have some odd laws but cartridge capacity seems odd.. 

Please reply I'm surprised by your response. 👍

Just read somewhere there maybe confusion amongst us 

Mine is a magnum steel proofed and can shoot bismuth so it should be legal 👍 

Also like I put down on my vary app

GOOSE, CROP PRODUCTION, VERMIN & PEST 

And just to clarify I have not used the gun yet so broken no laws as to its use. I will double check with RFD beforehand on picking up my ammo 👍

I have no idea why it’s illegal, I didn't introduce the legislation! You’d be far better off asking your shooting org’ than an RFD. It is illegal to shoot game with a S1 shotgun, and as far as I’m aware ducks and geese are classed as game. 
It is irrelevant what type of ammo you use if you’re using it through a S1 shotgun. 
It also doesn’t matter if you just load two or three rounds, or even one; if you’re using a S1 shotgun it’s still illegal. 

[enfieldspares]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

It also doesn’t matter if you just load two or three rounds, or even one; if you’re using a S1 shotgun it’s still illegal. 

Good Afternoon SCULLY!

Thank you. +1.

The only way that it can be used lawfully is by putting the often mentioned length of broom stale between the magazine cap and magazine plunger. As SCULLY says it does matter how many cartridges you actually put into it. It is how many cartridges you potentially could put into it.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

27 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Good Afternoon SCULLY!

Thank you. +1.

The only way that it can be used lawfully is by putting the often mentioned length of broom stale between the magazine cap and magazine plunger. As SCULLY says it does matter how many cartridges you actually put into it. It is how many cartridges you potentially could put into it.

No, if it is a section One Shotgun it is a section One Shotgun.

Stuffing the magazine to temporarily reduce its capacity does not change the fact that it is a Section One Shotgun.

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

No, if it is a section One Shotgun it is a section One Shotgun.

Stuffing the magazine to temporarily reduce its capacity does not change the fact that it is a Section One Shotgun.

This. 👆

[enfieldspares]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

This. 👆

Every day a school day. I didn't know that a temporary plug wasn't acceptable. And am still a little uncertain that it isn't as the law is worded not in terms of s1 or s2 but being incapable. Apparently it has never been "tested by a Court of Law" says BASC. So until then best not make oneself that test case!

https://basc.org.uk/firearms/firearms-use/semi-automatic-shotguns-and-rifles-for-live-quarry-shooting/

FWIW I have had both s1 and s2 Browning A-5 guns (both is 16 guage) and never found any advantage in having the "full fat" capacity offered by s1 for normal live quarry shooting that isn't almost as effectively achieved by having a Browning A-5 with its "speedload" ability.  To load direct to the magazine and the empty gun then automatically chamber that cartridge.

Edited November 6 by enfieldspares

[Dafid69]

Ok a few replies here which have not concluded whether or not it's illegal. 

So I'm going to find out from BASC 

👍🤪🤪😁

 

Edited November 6 by Dafid69

[Dafid69]

Right we can put this to bed.

I'm with BASC and I've just rang firearms.

It's 100% LEGAL to use S1 shotgun on Canada goose.

As long as steel or bismuth shot is used.

It's just classed as crop protection and vermin control.

Also the BASC operator is ex Lancashire firearms officer who only left last August 2023

So there we have it for me to share so it's straight from the horse's mouth.

100% LEGAL TO USE S1 SHOTGUN ON CANADA GOOSE

👍👍👍👍

Edited November 6 by Dafid69

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, Dafid69 said:

Right we can put this to bed.

I'm with BASC and I've just rang firearms.

It's 100% LEGAL to use S1 shotgun on Canada goose.

As long as steel or bismuth shot is used.

It's just classed as crop protection and vermin control.

Also the BASC operator is ex Lancashire firearms officer who only left last August 2023

So there we have it for me to share so it's straight from the horse's mouth.

100% LEGAL TO USE S1 SHOTGUN ON CANADA GOOSE

👍👍👍👍

Crack on then! 👍

I’m aware Canadas can be classed as a pest species and as such can be shot out of season, and was aware you could use a rifle ( which is S1 of course ) but wasn’t aware a S1 shotgun could be used.
Did you ask why it’s illegal to shoot all other species classed as game with a S1 shotgun? 
As far as I know it’s all to do with ‘sporting’ shots, but it would be good to get a definitive. 

[eightlittlebits]

25 minutes ago, Dafid69 said:

100% LEGAL TO USE S1 SHOTGUN ON CANADA GOOSE

Did they give the justification as to the exemption from the Wildlife and Countryside Act? I would guess it's as a pest under GL41 allowing semi-automatic S1 shotguns?

[Pushandpull]

What later legislation over-rides the W.C.A. as quoted by eightlittlebits above ? (He has responded as I write),

I have to say, having used both a Savage pump and later a Browning A5 back in the day before restriction, I can see no advantage in using a repeater holding more than two in the magazine. It cost a packet to get the "squareback" restricted.

[Sweet11-87]

come to this late  but as stated above Canada's fall under the GL as pests and never done it myself but my belief is that they descend on mass and leave the same way and its not an all day thing its one and gone.  the yanks love this on the snow geese with the coffin blinds and big long extended magazines, 3 or 4 guns will pop out and empty the guns. idea being get as many as you can in the mad window and go home.

totally accepted and valid reason for S1 ownership. pretty niche but its the tool for the job if youve got a Canada problem

 

[Pushandpull]

What happens in the USA is not relevant. Can someone please explain how the use of a S.1 shotgun is legal here ?

[Scully]

30 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

What happens in the USA is not relevant. Can someone please explain how the use of a S.1 shotgun is legal here ?

No more than I can explain why they shouldn’t be legal here. 🤷‍♂️

I can understand why the legislation was introduced regarding game, but I regard that decision to be poorly thought out and illogical, and more to do with tradition than anything else. 

[Sweet11-87]

1 hour ago, Pushandpull said:

What happens in the USA is not relevant. Can someone please explain how the use of a S.1 shotgun is legal here ?

of course its relevant. its been explained to you, Canada's are pests on the general license and in doing pest control the aim is to minimize damage by maximizing how many you kill.  if you manage to get 4 with 10 shots its more effective crop protection than getting 3 with 3 shots. 

 

i mentioned snow geese in America because that's how they manage them and the 2 species behave very similar  theirs a difference between having canadas on your land and having a canada problem they move in big numbers  and once they're spooked they're done for the day

being sporting isnt part of it like game shooting that we do solely for pleasure, its about carrying out a task efficiently and if youre shooting pigeon and canadas for sport you're technically not abiding by the rules of the GL.

 

 

Edited November 6 by Sweet11-87

[eightlittlebits]

1 hour ago, Pushandpull said:

What happens in the USA is not relevant. Can someone please explain how the use of a S.1 shotgun is legal here ?

As I understand it they're a permitted target species under General Licence 41.

It explicitly allows as a method of control "shoot with any firearm, including ‘semi-automatic weapons’[footnote 8], shotguns or air guns"

Footnote 8: 

Quote

‘Semi-automatic weapon’ is defined in section 27(1) of the 1981 Act. It means any weapon which is not prohibited by section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 and which has a magazine capable of holding more than 2 rounds of ammunition, where the depression of the trigger discharges a single shot and reloads the next, each subsequent shot requiring a further depression of the trigger - for example, Firearms Act section 1 shotguns.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wild-birds-licence-to-kill-or-take-for-public-health-or-safety-gl41/gl41-general-licence-to-kill-or-take-certain-species-of-wild-birds-to-preserve-public-health-or-public-safety

[Pushandpull]

A sensible and helpful answer. Thanks eightlittlebits.

[Scully]

10 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

 

being sporting isnt part of it like game shooting that we do solely for pleasure, its about carrying out a task efficiently and if youre shooting pigeon and canadas for sport you're technically not abiding by the rules of the GL.

 

 

Quite.