Is anybody bothered

[JRDS]

You're misrepresenting the ST article. Even that didn't claim that a private discussion in an unelected advisory committee with no policy making powers represented BASC's actual stance. Given BASC's repeated public statements on this issue the evidence actually suggests that the advisory committee was at odds with BASC's view.

 

John Swift's chairmanship of the panel was approved by all the shooting organisations that discussed the committee.

 

Christopher

 

I haven't misrepresented anything, the article is on this thread for anyone to read and draw their own conclusions.

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

[Christopher Graffius]

I haven't misrepresented anything, the article is on this thread for anyone to read and draw their own conclusions.

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

How do the private discussions of 7 members of an unelected advisory group of a 130,000 member association "clearly show BASC's real stance"?

 

Why do you consider that that unelected advisory group's private discussions are more relevant than the decisions and pronouncements of the elected Council?

 

Point me to one sentence in the ST article, which doesn't come from the private minute, that says that that is BASC's view.

 

If you can't - then that suggests to me that - unwittingly I'm sure - you misrepresented what the article said.

 

I just want our discussions to be based on actual fact not personal speculation.

 

Christopher

[crimthan]

What you fail to say is that the article in ST is not false and is not mis-reporting as you quote, it is actual minutes and quotes from meetings which clearly show BASC's real stance.

 

BASC are very obviously trying to keep hold of members hence their public PC rhetoric whilst the ST article clearly shows their real stance.

 

For me they shouldn't be chairing the panel and are obviously a choice of their pals DEFRA and the RSPB, end off.

 

 

End off??

 

Grow up.

 

Who would you suggest should chair the committee? Or would you rather no one attended it from shooting interests?

 

"ST article clearly shows their real stance"

 

Nonsense. ST article gives selective snippets from leaked minutes of an advisory committee. It does not mention BASC's actual stance at all. That is the problem with it.

Edited April 18, 2010 by crimthan

[hawkeye]

Well I have just received an e mail from BASC and with it a link to John Swifts response to the ST and all the hype. I have to say it is well written and should stop all the doubters in their tracks.

 

However as you see time and time again on these forums BASC can never do anything right in some peoples eyes and I am sure these people will find fault. It is a real pity that all these armchair experts don't stand up to be counted when it matters and put themselves in the firing line.

 

I will not post the e mail as the main content has already been posted by DavidBASC and if you want the link then join BASC and sign up to the e mail newsletters.

 

 

 

I got the E-Mail as well

[JRDS]

How do the private discussions of 7 members of an unelected advisory group of a 130,000 member association "clearly show BASC's real stance"?

 

Why do you consider that that unelected advisory group's private discussions are more relevant than the decisions and pronouncements of the elected Council?

 

Point me to one sentence in the ST article, which doesn't come from the private minute, that says that that is BASC's view.

 

If you can't - then that suggests to me that - unwittingly I'm sure - you misrepresented what the article said.

 

I just want our discussions to be based on actual fact not personal speculation.

 

Christopher

 

I see you and crimthan are very recent members, are you more BASC's employees by any chance doing you best to sway public opinion with damage limitation. You seem to be doing an awful amount of work to distance the elected Council from its advisors, the damage is already done for me. What is the point of having them if their opinions count for nothing??

 

I would prefer to see the CA or the NGO chair the committe for what its worth, at least they only have one agenda!

 

Seems like you and your sidekick are only interested in minimising the damage caused by the ST revelations, personally I would prefer the truth.

Edited April 18, 2010 by JRDS

[webber]

I attended an NGO AGM a couple of weeks ago. The lead subject was briefly discussed. The chairman's opinion was that they were a bit miffed at not being invited onto the group, but he commented that at least it left the NGO free to make comments as appropriate.

 

I do wonder if the new ST editor is attempting to plough his own furrow, and follow one of his predecessors into a cushy job at the CA.

 

webber

[crimthan]

I see you and crimthan are very recent members, are you more BASC's employees by any chance doing you best to sway public opinion with damage limitation. You seem to be doing an awful amount of work to distance the elected Council from its advisors, the damage is already done for me. What is the point of having them if their opinions count for nothing??

 

I would prefer to see the CA or the NGO chair the committe for what its worth, at least they only have one agenda!

 

Seems like you and your sidekick are only interested in minimising the damage caused by the ST revelations, personally I would prefer the truth.

 

 

"I see you and crimthan are very recent members, are you more BASC's employees " Not me. I am however a BASC member. Using your reasoning, am I to assume then, that you are a CA or ST employee, as you are doing your best to mis-represent BASC views and are advocating the CA as being a viable alternative to BASC ?

 

The reason I am a BASC member is because IMHO BASC are the only organisation with the ability to represent my views in a calm, professional and able manner.

As to your putting forward the CA to chair the meeting. I see some merit in that idea. It would do them good to get the experience of actually doing something constructive, rather than standing on the sidelines jumping up and down, and it would also actually make them come up with some alternative policy, rather than just decrying BASC policy.

 

Re the CA "at least they only have one agenda!" That is so true. But do you know what that agenda is? Or at least what their MAIN agenda is? I cannot help but feel that since they came into being, their overtures towards shooters and wildfowlers have been rather blatant recruitment ploys, rather than evidence of real concern with representing our views.

Edited April 18, 2010 by crimthan

[crimthan]

"I do wonder if the new ST editor is attempting to plough his own furrow, and follow one of his predecessors into a cushy job at the CA."

 

I am glad I am not the only cynic here trying to figure out ST and CA involvement in all this.

[mossy835]

only if you have to change your guns to take steel shot.

[al4x]

A14X,

 

Hello mate,a few pages back I asked you, since you`re not a BASC member, which organisation represented your viewpoint at national level.

 

Perhaps I`ve missed your answer. If BASC`s standpoint is anathema to you, could you possibly share with us the name of the national body that does have all the answers, and let us know what that policy is.

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

 

where did you get the idea I'm not a member at the moment? Perhaps its why I had an opinion on what views were being represented as at first glance they didn't appear to be my views

 

 

Personally my issue with steel would be the ricochet issue, take two kinds of shooting I've done recently Hare drives and vermin days. Hares using 4's now go up two sizes and start shooting ground game with people nearly on flinty ground and tell me there isn't going to be someone shot even is it is a ricochet. Vermin days were winged and ground vermin in woods same deal are ricochets going to be a problem? I've had ricochets with lead but only when using very big shot on Muntjacks years back and its not funny how it comes off trees. As for steel embedded in trees it won't do favours to chainsaws as even small nails at very best blunt them and at worst break chains. Personally if it comes in I can see that we'll go from the status quo where no one seems to have been poisoned or died from lead in game to people being injured or killed by steel ricochets.

[Christopher Graffius]

I see you and crimthan are very recent members, are you more BASC's employees by any chance doing you best to sway public opinion with damage limitation. You seem to be doing an awful amount of work to distance the elected Council from its advisors, the damage is already done for me. What is the point of having them if their opinions count for nothing??

 

I would prefer to see the CA or the NGO chair the committe for what its worth, at least they only have one agenda!

 

Seems like you and your sidekick are only interested in minimising the damage caused by the ST revelations, personally I would prefer the truth.

 

Just to be clear - I thought it was - I have worked for BASC for the last ten years in communications. Before that I worked for seventeen years in politics and government.

 

I'm very fortunate to be able to work in shooting which has been my passion since I could accompany my father when he went shooting.

 

I know, because I see it every day, just how much hard work and dedication goes into promoting and protecting shooting at BASC. There's a real commitment among the staff for what they do and it's impressive.

 

I don't like seeing that dragged through the mud - as it has been in the past few weeks, and I've posted here to put the record straight.

 

In my experience as a debate develops it becomes fairly clear where the truth is. One of the reasons I enjoy working at BASC is that there's a strong belief in doing what's right that's all too rare elsewhere.

 

On the issue of the chairman, he's appointed as an individual, not as a representative of an organisation. Therefore there are considerations of personal skills involved.

 

 

Christopher

[anser2]

JRDS just because someone does not agree with your opinion you automatically think they work for BASC. Get real for gods sake or we might start to suspect your in league with the CA. Just look at the two records of achievement between the two organisations and then decide which is the most effective. In fact has the CA ever won any field sport battle? The attempt of the CA in defending hunting was an astounding flop , but it did have one benefit for shooting. The LACS membership I am told has plummeted as while the public has no love for hunting with dogs its on the whole not that bothered with shooting and a weak LACS is good news for us all.

 

 

You seem to think BASC is working with the RSPB and others to bring about a ban. What rubbish ! Its in BASCs interest to defend the future of shooting sports as without shooters there is no BASC.

Edited April 18, 2010 by anser2

[crimthan]

"I see you and crimthan are very recent members,"

 

JRDS

 

I joined this forum recently, yes. But, I was already a member before this thread was started, or the ST article on BASC and lead came to the fore. So NO, I did not just join pigeon watch forum to push BASC policy on lead ammunition.

Edited April 18, 2010 by crimthan

[mudpatten]

Lets move away for a moment from the willful misrepresentation of BASC to something more concrete.

 

We all know that the warped agenda of the Shooting Times is behind this attack on BASC, but it is truly stunning to see the lengths they will go to to cause trouble. Some of it apparently not very well strategically thought out.

 

In the 14th April edition I did`nt get much past the "Has BASC given up on lead?" drivel and I`ve only just read the gamefarming article on page 30. Truly breathtaking! In an attempt to rubbish BASC`s "Buy British game" campaign Alistair Balmain has published an article which castigates British game farming over the last thirty years and, to paraphrase, brands it as unsustainable, disease ridden, drug dependent and the producer of "a poor flying national mongrel pheasant with a narrow, keel shaped breast and a skipping rope neck."

 

Apparently our useless and incompetent game farmers can only look to the French for salvation.

 

Oh! and whose fault is all this? You`ve guessed it. By some mental gymnastics, it`s the BASC.

 

Bit of an own goal that one Ali.

[poontang]

Blimey, talk about divide and conquer!!

 

The RSPB, WWT et al must be loving this.

 

All this talk about ST, CA, CPSA etc all being in league trying to discredit the BASC won't be doing shooters, whatever their allegiance, any good at all.

 

Why not just wait until the first meeting on the 26th, when hopefully all parties will set out their stalls and we can see where everyone stands on the issue? I'm sure the full minutes will be published in due course? (In fact i believe there's already a FOI request lodged with DEFRA for the minutes of all meetings). Hopefully we can all then stop the conspiracy theories and get behind ALL the organisations fighting against a lead ban.

[David BASC]

Evening all,

 

Just spent two days at Catton - very very busy and great to see so many members, and to make so many new members too!

 

John Swift was there both days spending hours on the stand, as was I, Simon Clarke and several other members of BASC staff too, and all (very gratefully) supported by our loyal volunteer network.

 

A few members came up to talk about lead, and frankly were very happy (apart from one) once we explained our position on lead as per the e-mail that has gone round.

 

John, Me, Simon et al will be at many other shows through the year so please come up and have a chat (we may even let Christopher attend one or two! )

 

Important, in my view, to stop the bickering and all work together for the common objective - oppose any unwarranted attempts to further restrict lead shot.

 

Having said all that I don’t think this should stop BASC or anyone else for that matter reviewing NTS in their mags/ journals if they want to.

 

David

[Christopher Graffius]

Evening all,

 

Just spent two days at Catton - very very busy and great to see so many members, and to make so many new members too!

 

John Swift was there both days spending hours on the stand, as was I, Simon Clarke and several other members of BASC staff too, and all (very gratefully) supported by our loyal volunteer network.

 

A few members came up to talk about lead, and frankly were very happy (apart from one) once we explained our position on lead as per the e-mail that has gone round.

 

John, Me, Simon et al will be at many other shows through the year so please come up and have a chat (we may even let Christopher attend one or two! )

 

Important, in my view, to stop the bickering and all work together for the common objective - oppose any unwarranted attempts to further restrict lead shot.

 

Having said all that I don’t think this should stop BASC or anyone else for that matter reviewing NTS in their mags/ journals if they want to.

 

David

 

Glad to hear Catton went well. Don't push me to attend too many game fairs - I spent a very pleasant weekend exploring a new part of my local river with my trout rod!

 

Christopher

[Guest topshot_2k]

Important, in my view, to stop the bickering and all work together for the common objective - oppose any unwarranted attempts to further restrict lead shot.

 

[crimthan]

Glad to hear Catton went well. Don't push me to attend too many game fairs - I spent a very pleasant weekend exploring a new part of my local river with my trout rod!

 

Christopher

 

 

Nice to hear that you had a good response at Catton.

 

Re/

 

" spent a very pleasant weekend exploring a new part of my local river with my trout rod!"

 

Lucky man Christopher, have not had a chance to cast a fly yet.

[JRDS]

"I see you and crimthan are very recent members, are you more BASC's employees " Not me. I am however a BASC member. Using your reasoning, am I to assume then, that you are a CA or ST employee, as you are doing your best to mis-represent BASC views and are advocating the CA as being a viable alternative to BASC ?

 

The reason I am a BASC member is because IMHO BASC are the only organisation with the ability to represent my views in a calm, professional and able manner.

As to your putting forward the CA to chair the meeting. I see some merit in that idea. It would do them good to get the experience of actually doing something constructive, rather than standing on the sidelines jumping up and down, and it would also actually make them come up with some alternative policy, rather than just decrying BASC policy.

 

Re the CA "at least they only have one agenda!" That is so true. But do you know what that agenda is? Or at least what their MAIN agenda is? I cannot help but feel that since they came into being, their overtures towards shooters and wildfowlers have been rather blatant recruitment ploys, rather than evidence of real concern with representing our views.

 

No I am neither a member of the CA and I don't work for ST.

 

I am a member of the NGO but a member only, nothing else.

 

Can't see how I am misrepresenting BASC's views, just forming an opinion on an article they have not denied in any way.

 

I have also studied responses on the web and articles in their magazine extoling the virtues of NTS that would lead me to believe ST have hit the nail on the head.

 

My opinion and you don't have to share it!!

Edited April 18, 2010 by JRDS

[shootnfish]

i hope it does not get banned but if it does im not going to bleet about it just use the next best thing get used to it and get on with my shooting.

[Salopian]

Thank you shootnfish for your apathy.

If anyone is not interested there will not be a meeting of the 'watchingpaintdry' society due to one of our members being too busy painting his lead soldiers.

Next month we will be having a talk by Bill Harriman on how he modelled for lead soldier moulds before he worked for Weller & Duffy.

[Chard]

Thank you shootnfish for your apathy.

If anyone is not interested there will not be a meeting of the 'watchingpaintdry' society due to one of our members being too busy painting his lead soldiers.

Next month we will be having a talk by Bill Harriman on how he modelled for lead soldier moulds before he worked for Weller & Duffy.

 

 

Nothing wrong with a bit of apath.............

 

........whatever

[shootnfish]

Thank you shootnfish for your apathy.

If anyone is not interested there will not be a meeting of the 'watchingpaintdry' society due to one of our members being too busy painting his lead soldiers.

Next month we will be having a talk by Bill Harriman on how he modelled for lead soldier moulds before he worked for Weller & Duffy.

i was just answering the question at the start of the thread "is anyone bothered" not getting involved in BASC said this the shooting times said that and ca or whoever bloody else said whatever . what good is all that going to do.

[Salopian]

I spent last night reading a Defra report on 'Wildlife Diseases in The UK' 2007.

Disgracefully I found that 30 Birds were reported to have died from Lead Toxicosis.

Thousands of birds died of Salmonella but you wouldn't want to know about that would you?

Come on Defra, RSPB, FSA, BASC , et.al. get real and be concerned about welfare in Humans and World wide health and standards.

How about becoming concerned about how much harm the toxic Brown Gordaneous Laborious have caused to wildlife sports in the last 10 years?