Shot comparsons - Steel V lead

[anser2]

With all the debate about lead being banned this weekends result might put some peoples fear of steel to rest. I was decoying a rape field on Friday using 30 gr of no 6 in lead. The weather was mainly overcast and with very light winds. The birds were easy as they glided into decoys. I was using lead and for 61 shots bagged 40 birds and lost one that vanashed from the field behind.

 

Today I was back on the same field but on the north end and using Gamebore 32 gr of steel no 3s. There was a brisk NE winds and it was bright sunshine all day. The birds came well , but the shots were much harder as they reacted to movement very quickly and the majority of birds were taken turning away. Result 70 pigeons for 116 shots. The same AYA no 3 i\c choked gun was used on both days.

 

The lead cost £4.30 per box and the steel £5.20

[David BASC]

An interesting result, at the end of the day , regardless of the 'stories' we may hear about NTS, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and field tests like this are very useful for everyone, so thank you very much for posting it.

 

I hope others will do the same as they see fit.

 

At the end of the day, I suspect that steel is just as good for pigeons - as the above shows. Similary it's fine for pheasants and partridge, etc.

 

But its a free market so choose your pick!

 

David

[fortune82]

Some of the highest duck I have ever killed have been shot with 32 gram no.3 steel. I took some out decoying as well to compare them to 32 gram no.5 lead and the steel kept up with the lead out to a measured 45 yards. I dont tend to shoot further than this with either shot material.

[Salopian]

Perhaps BASC should run an opinion Poll?

I think if we ran one on this site it would overwhelmingly be in favour of Lead shot.

Perhaps that may be BASC's problem? Because they are a CONSERVATION organisation maybe they can't see the wood for the trees?

Time to harvest the timber? The change from WAGBI to BASC some years ago has obviously resulted in some softwoods being planted, time to thin them out?

Could anyone tell me where I can buy non-tox for my .410, 28bore, and 60mm chambered 12 Bore? Or even my 65mm chambered 12 bores come to think of it?

Will BASC be funding a scrappage scheme for obsolete shotguns?

[David BASC]

Well thanks for a lovely kick in the nuts boys. Just stop and think for a mo, if I inferred you were an anti and told you to shut your mouth, I bet you would come out screaming and shouting about it wouldn’t you?

 

1. Yes I do work for BASC - have done for 15 years.

2. I am entitled to express my personal opinion on this forum just the same as you

3. I use lead where ever I can as my preference, but not on wetlands etc as per the law

4. The original post was about members of this forums experience of steel/ lead. I am entitled to engage in debate, I am not excluded just because I work for BASC for goodness sake!

5. BASC will not be funding a scappage scheme

6. I have no doubt that people on here prefer lead.

7. I am no expert on cartridge loads, but if you contact’ Just Cartridges’ they may be able to help

 

NOTE when I post ‘ I think this’ or I have found that’ – it is evidently my personal opinion.

 

When I post ‘BASC’s position is this’ or ‘BASC’s view is that’ I am evidently posting as BASC

 

From BASC’s view there is clearly no proposed ban on lead shot, this is just media hype

 

As to BASC position on lead shot, perhaps you have missed all the posts on the subject, so let me make BASC's position very clear for you:

 

BASC OPPOSES ANY FURTHER RESTRICTIONS ON LEAD SHOT

[Bazooka Joe]

The prospect of a total ban throughout the UK looms as anti-lead groups gear up to advise on the use of lead shot

 

Fears over a future ban on the use of all lead shot throughout the UK were raised considerably last week following the announcement that a group is being brought together to advise DEFRA and the Food Standards Agency (FSA) on issues connected with the use of lead ammunition.

 

 

From BASC’s view there is clearly no proposed ban on lead shot, this is just media hype

 

 

So what's the first quote about then David, must be Shooting Times media Hype then ?

 

BJ

[BlaserF3]

David from BASC,

 

1.You say you work for BASC, fair enough.

 

2. If you have a personal opinion post under another name do not involve BASC.

 

3. You use what you want within the law.

 

4. True, you can engage in a debate, just drop the BASC from your name then we know that you are being impartial.

 

5. Well no answer to that one is there!

 

6. The most truthful remark that you have posted.

 

7. Your ignorance of what cartridges are required for different guns is amazing seeing how you seem to think steel is suitable for everything.

 

You as a spokesman for BASC are doing BASC no favours at all.

[Ozzy Fudd]

am i the only one who can see the difference in these quotes?

 

The prospect of a total ban throughout the UK looms as anti-lead groups gear up to advise on the use of lead shot

 

Fears over a future ban on the use of all lead shot throughout the UK were raised considerably last week following the announcement that a group is being brought together to advise DEFRA and the Food Standards Agency (FSA) on issues connected with the use of lead ammunition.

 

From BASC’s view there is clearly no proposed ban on lead shot, this is just media hype

 

now anything that uses the word's "prospect" and "looms" imo is just hype. reading into it, it is saying is that some anti groups are trying to get lead banned. however, the government have NOT turned around and proposed a ban, they have asked certain groups to form an advisory group and look into it. perhaps its the hangover making me see clearly, but sometimes i really believe some members on here have no understanding of the english language, or failing that they read only what they want to read

 

as for basc doing what members want, thats laughable. to me its basc's job to do whats in shootings BEST INTEREST, not members individual whims, otherwise theyd probably spend their time getting ramblers executed and lobbying for govt subsidies for shells . yes, we would all love it if basc turned around, told the govt, defra, etc, where to stick their consultancy group and that we'll keep using lead, not matter what. oh it would be such a jolly, a complete victory for the shooting community. right up until the point a total lead ban does come in, because basc didnt get involved in the debate and so had no input or sway in any of the arguments, so the govt used evidence provided by the anti's.

 

and anyway since when is david basc not allowed to have a personal opinion? im sorry lads but some of you are totally out of order. david has personally helped many members on this site (myself included) on many occasions. i have yet to see any of the other shooting organisations have representatives on this site (although i reckon some of the basc bashers may have links...). catch yourselves on.

[MC]

BlaserF3,

 

Do you change your user name if you give a personal or professional opinon? Because I know sure as hell I don't. You seem hell bent on slamming David for any reason, you also cannot accept that should a lead ban ever happen shooting will carry on.

 

As a wildfowler I know only too well what a lead ban means, it means we make the best of it and carry on.

 

Salopian,

 

You do not need to buy non toxic for your .410, 60mm chambered 12 bore(??) or any of your other guns at the moment unless you are shooting ducks or geese. And if you are then both guns are really unsuitable anyway.

 

You can buy several brands of non toxic for your 65mm 12 bore and at least 1 for your 28 bore. It seems that you guys are the ones making a mountain out of a molehill.

Edited April 12, 2010 by MC

[BlaserF3]

I was not personally attacking David I was disagreeing with David BASC which is a totally different issue.

 

David BASC thought that the posts about steel shot were a good field test and he wanted more information, this was just some bloke out with his gun.

 

If a poster from any organisation post's on here and somebody does not agree with it we are at the moment entitled to reply to that post, if that organisation does not like the general public giving them a bit of flak, just think before you post.

 

MC, if we ever have a total lead ban ie; everything including rim fire, airgun pellets, any gun that cannot be used with another type of projectile it will be the end of gun ownership for thousands of shooters, not just me.

 

That's why I have a go at poster's on here, but I do not get personal.

[MC]

I was not personally attacking David I was disagreeing with David BASC which is a totally different issue.

 

David BASC thought that the posts about steel shot were a good field test and he wanted more information, this was just some bloke out with his gun.

 

If a poster from any organisation post's on here and somebody does not agree with it we are at the moment entitled to reply to that post, if that organisation does not like the general public giving them a bit of flak, just think before you post.

 

MC, if we ever have a total lead ban ie; everything including rim fire, airgun pellets, any gun that cannot be used with another type of projectile it will be the end of gun ownership for thousands of shooters, not just me.

That's why I have a go at poster's on here, but I do not get personal.

 

 

If you seriously believe that then you are quite a bit more blinkered than I first thought. Do you honestly think companies like Eley will just go out of business because you cannot use their rimfire ammunition any more?

 

I saw non toxic airgun pellets over 25 years ago so that isn't even an issue.

 

I really cannot see how a lead ban will mean the end of gun ownership, It will mean we have to change the way we think, just like wildfowlers did but I still own guns that I use for wildfowling.

[al4x]

right ignore the bashing here and you have a comparrison between using 3's in steel and lead 6's, well blow me down with a feather if the steel wasn't good or better it ought to be in that size shot. Quite what they were like to eat would be my main concern as 3's is going to wack them about a fair bit and I'd guess your game dealer wouldn't really want to take them but be interesting to see some pics of the breasts to see the effect

[David BASC]

BJ, I (that is David Ilsley - not BASC) think that a headline like

 

' The prospect of a total ban throughout the UK looms as anti-lead groups gear up to advise on the use of lead shot'

 

is a bit more 'exciting' than

 

' BASC leads Defra group to review lead ammunition’

 

I can’t blame magazines and newspapers from doing all they can to make their headlines as exciting as possible, it encourages people to read the article, but as I said, there is no lead ban proposed…by anyone, least of all Defra or Government

 

Blazer, believe it or not, my post in BASC does not require me to be an expert on cartridges, nor does it require me to be an expert on the best cartridge for different types of gun. You call this ignorance if you want to, I call it honestly.

 

As published in the last BASC mag BASC did a comparison of NTS and its uses, steel came out as being OK to use across all types of shooting, where other NTS loads were less flexible, not least of all due to cost. If anyone would like a copy of the mag just PM me your postal address and I will send one to you.

 

As I said originally, the field test (bloke with a gun) was interesting, not least in the context of the article in the BASC mag and I thought it would be interesting to hear other people’s experience of shooting steel that was all, as like I said, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

BASC’s position on NTS has always been that substitutes for lead must be safe, effective, environmentally acceptable and affordable. Again details of this are in the March / April issue.

 

I don't mind taking a bit of flack; I do object some of the comments that frankly are a bit personal - but hay I can get rid of all my aggression at the karate dojo three times a week!

 

And finally I have no intention of posting under another name, that’s just daft, I have made it clear that when I post ‘I think this’ its me when I post ‘BASC thinks this’ its BASC – simple and clear I hope.

 

David

[Bazooka Joe]

now anything that uses the word's "prospect" and "looms" imo is just hype. reading into it, it is saying is that some anti groups are trying to get lead banned. however, the government have NOT turned around and proposed a ban, they have asked certain groups to form an advisory group and look into it. perhaps its the hangover making me see clearly, but sometimes i really believe some members on here have no understanding of the english language, or failing that they read only what they want to read

 

 

That's the way I see it( anti groups are trying to get lead banned ),look at it in perspective, if they succeed, most guns would be out of action.....now there's a prospect!!!!!!!!!!

 

As for the government not proposing a ban on lead, I doubt very much they , or, any other party would do that with an election looming..........there's that word looming again....the election must be hype then.!!!!!!

 

BJ.

[Pinkfooty]

Guys, Guys, Guys.....

 

Can we please get this issue into perspective. Here are some facts:

 

1. There are a number of groups who think that the use of lead ammunition may cause problems. (The Food Standards Agency and the RSPB, to name but two.) These groups raise the matter in official circles (as is their right and, some would say, their duty).

 

2. When potentially serious issues are raised by powerful or official groups, the appropriate government agencies are duty-bound to investigate. So DEFRA sets up an advisory panel. John Swift of BASC is appointed to chair this group.

 

3. The editorial comment in a shooting magazine suggests that this perhaps indicates that BASC is not totally committed to opposing further restrictions on the use of lead ammunition. It was that editorial that set this particular hare running for the past couple of weeks on this forum and on others (to say nothing of the pages of that magazine).

 

4. BASC responds by restating its policy - that it is totally opposed to further restrictions on the use of lead ammunition.

 

5. The ban on lead shot for wildfowling (which BASC fought hard against for a very long time) was eventually introduced without there being a scrap of scientific evidence to suggest that the conservation status of any species was adversely affected by the ingestion of lead shot deposited by normal levels of wildfowling on tidal estuaries in the UK. So we know that government decisions are not always based on objective evidence.

 

So - what better way of trying to ensure that the unwarranted ban on lead shot for wildfowling is not repeated for other types of shooting, than to have the Chief Executive of BASC - an organisation totally opposed to further restrictions - in the Chair of the official DEFRA advisory panel?

 

Would the people of Pigeon Watch, who have been slagging off BASC on this issue, really prefer that the official DEFRA group was chaired by a representative of the RSPB or FSA?

 

Come on guys, wake up and smell the coffee.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Pinkfooty

[Salopian]

Eric Begbie wrote:-

The ban on lead shot for wildfowling (which BASC fought hard against for a very long time) was eventually introduced without there being a scrap of scientific evidence to suggest that the conservation status of any species was adversely affected by the ingestion of lead shot deposited by normal levels of wildfowling on tidal estuaries in the UK. So we know that government decisions are not always based on objective evidence.

Right Ladies & Gentlemen,

There is NO ban on Lead being used for Clay and Game shooting, there is no scientific evidence that it is harmful to use lead shot in the UK.

David Ilsley (BASC) is entitled to his views and opinions and we must respect that.

Soft Iron shot is not effective in light loads and low pressures suitable for classic, valuable English guns, so a ban on the use of lead would render these guns obsolete.

Current effective 'steel' shotloads are high velocity with resultant high recoil which IS proven to be very harmful to humans, so I could be cavalier and say sod the animals, save humans.

For MC's benefit my 60mm chambered gun includes the slight forcing cone was made for 2" cartridges, I would never use soft iron in that baby.

Interestingly have any of you who have shot pigeons with 30grams of No3 'steel' eaten the pigeons afterwards?

 

Finally can we all sing from the same hymn book and oppose the proposed further restrictions on the use of lead shot and be united in our efforts.

The use of illegal firearms in crime has a far greater effect on the population than a ton of lead on the marshes has.

[mpk]

BlaserF3,

 

Do you change your user name if you give a personal or professional opinon? Because I know sure as hell I don't. You seem hell bent on slamming David for any reason, you also cannot accept that should a lead ban ever happen shooting will carry on.

 

As a wildfowler I know only too well what a lead ban means, it means we make the best of it and carry on.

 

Salopian,

 

You do not need to buy non toxic for your .410, 60mm chambered 12 bore(??) or any of your other guns at the moment unless you are shooting ducks or geese. And if you are then both guns are really unsuitable anyway.

 

You can buy several brands of non toxic for your 65mm 12 bore and at least 1 for your 28 bore. It seems that you guys are the ones making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi guys im quite interested in this post steel vs lead im wondering what other alternatives there are to lead im aware of bismuth but its very exspensive and my local gunshop does not stock it any longer due to this reason .All advice greatly appreiciated

 

cheers

[wymberley]

Eric Begbie wrote:-

The ban on lead shot for wildfowling (which BASC fought hard against for a very long time) was eventually introduced without there being a scrap of scientific evidence to suggest that the conservation status of any species was adversely affected by the ingestion of lead shot deposited by normal levels of wildfowling on tidal estuaries in the UK. So we know that government decisions are not always based on objective evidence.

Right Ladies & Gentlemen,

There is NO ban on Lead being used for Clay and Game shooting, there is no scientific evidence that it is harmful to use lead shot in the UK.

David Ilsley (BASC) is entitled to his views and opinions and we must respect that.

Soft Iron shot is not effective in light loads and low pressures suitable for classic, valuable English guns, so a ban on the use of lead would render these guns obsolete.

Current effective 'steel' shotloads are high velocity with resultant high recoil which IS proven to be very harmful to humans, so I could be cavalier and say sod the animals, save humans.

For MC's benefit my 60mm chambered gun includes the slight forcing cone was made for 2" cartridges, I would never use soft iron in that baby.

Interestingly have any of you who have shot pigeons with 30grams of No3 'steel' eaten the pigeons afterwards?

 

Finally can we all sing from the same hymn book and oppose the proposed further restrictions on the use of lead shot and be united in our efforts.

The use of illegal firearms in crime has a far greater effect on the population than a ton of lead on the marshes has.

Hi, If you ever toodle down the M5 as far as Exeter or onwards, may just have something for you.

Cheers

[David BASC]

MPK, send me a PM with you address and I will post you a copy of the BASC mag that looked into all the alternatives and their use.

 

I agree that if lead is restricted there is an issue over the older guns, smaller calibres etc. If I were lucky enough to own one, especially if it had been handed down to me by a family member for example, I would not risk it either.

 

Also, no where that I go shooting (clay, pigeon, and rabbit shooting) will allow plastic wads…and I could not afford to go pigeon shooting with bismuth! So trust me I am as keen as anyone to see the right conclusion to all this!

 

Turning back to the other sizes or cartridges that was raised earlier, it is simply, I suspect, a question of supply and demand. If manufactures can make money out of selling different cartridges then those cartridges will be made available.

 

David

[Magus69]

Me and my friend went halfs on 1000 Lyalvale Hunting Steel 70mm in no4 shot because we got them at an excellent price.We originaly bought them for use on Duck mainly Teal and were happy enough with them.Because we got so many we also use them on Pigeon still not bad but do tend to shoot through (or at least very deep) and a second cart is often necessary to finish the job.

But when I tried them on our game shoot which is in some very tight cover then the problems arose I was getting some serious ricochets from the trees one of which struck another shooters glasses (lucky he was wearing them) needless to say I immediately stopped shooting and turned down the offers of shooting the others carts and just worked my dog.

So to sum up if lead were banned it would mean I would have to resign my position on the shoot as I couldn't really afford the extra cost of more suitable alternatives than steel.

Also don't expect the BASC or anyone else to be able to do anything at all if lead were to be banned otherwise people would still be shooting lead at wildfowl,semi auto rifles(in calibres other than .22 rimfire),hunting with dogs,shooting cartridge based pistols,shooting air cartridge based rifles/pistols. If a government (any government) thought that an outright ban on something would win more votes than leaving things the way they are then it would go ahead,and the fact that you would no longer be able to shoot your nineteen nought blob sbs wouldn't even feature.

Mike...

Edited April 12, 2010 by Magus69

[brian28]

David,

 

I take it that because of spent lead shot being ingested by a few birds that lead was then banned.

 

What I cannot understand why was it still allowed to shoot, and therefore kill the same birds at all.

 

Why was wild fowling not banned as birds are still being killed, not by lead poisoning but by being shot by some other type of shot, it just does not make sense to me at all.

 

A very puzzled Blaser.

Well I can see where you stand blaserf3 you only shoot clays so sod everyone else.

plass wad only is wrong too they make them in biodegradable full fibre cup now

The BASC is at least trying to help shooters

[anser2]

right ignore the bashing here and you have a comparrison between using 3's in steel and lead 6's, well blow me down with a feather if the steel wasn't good or better it ought to be in that size shot. Quite what they were like to eat would be my main concern as 3's is going to wack them about a fair bit and I'd guess your game dealer wouldn't really want to take them but be interesting to see some pics of the breasts to see the effect

 

 

al4x , no3s in steel do a lot less damage to the meat than the lead 7 1\2s a lot use on here. Steel does not deform like lead so pellet size for pellet size probably does less damage to the meat. I sell most of my pigeons to a local farm shop and often chat to the butcher while he is preparing the birds and he is more than happy with the meat they produce.

 

No 3s may seem a bit on the big side , but its recommended when using steel you go up 2 sizes compared with lead. Would you think using no 5 in lead excessive? I have said this before but , The thing people have to get their heads around is shooting steel is very different to shooting lead. With lead pattern gives out before penetration. With steel penetration gives out before pattern. So go up at least 2 sizes when using steel to counter this. To use steel in 6s at 40 + yards is not a knock out blow. I have had astounding results when using 1 9\16 oz of 3.5 inch no 2s on high mallard , but in reality its little different in using the old lead 4s , a favoured shot size for coastal duck shooting.

 

THINK BIG WHEN USING STEEL AND YOU WILL NOT GO FAR WRONG.

 

Lead has the edge on steel , but its only when you start to shoot at realy long range birds that this becomes aparent. Having said this I mainly use lead for my pigeon shooting purely because its cheeper , but do not think the loss of lead is the end of shooting . Wildfowlers have proved it is a new begining.

Edited April 12, 2010 by anser2

[BlaserF3]

brian28,

 

I was being sarcastic as some one else commented on that very fact. :blink:

[wymberley]

Hi, Please note the topic title.

Posts from several people, including the OP author, reflect that they have the situation sorted, but not everybody has. In my opinion, the biggest problem that steel has is the idiot who first declared, "just go up two shot sizes". People did and were disappointed with the result and consequently steel ended up with a reputation which is not fully deserved. You cannot directly compare like (lead) with unlike (steel). You need to compare each pellet's individual lethal capability which is known as its energy density. This information is readily available. Perhaps David BASC could pop into Dr H's office (I'm pretty sure that he will have a copy) and accompanied by a short covering article publish Fig. 56 on page 55 and Fig. 64 on page 59 of 'A Ballistics Measurement System to Assist the Development and Evaluation of Non-Toxic Shot' in a forthcoming BASC magazine. I concede that this is a little dated; steel has improved since this was written but it remains a reasonably fair assessment.

Cheers

[Dunkield]

This is the original topic with all personal insults edited, please keep it on topic, and free from insults or it will be binned for good.