Fox Calibre

[ellebarto]

As I said before kent, I would chop in the .17hmr for a .22 Hornet. The OP could then use it instead of his HMR (he states he's used to using one) and it would be very similar in performance. When home loaded too the cost is very reasonable and similar the the HMR so it could be used a lot, meaning he would become familiar with the gun and learn its limits.

 

This in my opinion would be much better than buying a .223, taking it out once in a blue moon and not knowing it at all. Add that to the fact that to shoot a Fox with the .223 he would have had to be called by the farmer so he could head out especially to shoot it as he wouldn't have the gun with him if one just happened to turn up. You have to admit a gun that you use a lot and know is miles better than an odd occasion boomer that just comes out now and again?

 

I can only comment on my experience. I had a HMR for a while and used to use it as my main gun. I had odd chances of Foxes and my force allowed them on my conditions, but I just didn't find the little round suitable. I bought a .223 and took it Foxing but it didn't get used much, it was far too much for bunnies and the same thing went on - I'd be out bunny bashing and a Fox would appear but only having the HMR I was leaving them. So I chopped in the HMR and .223 for a .22H - ok the .22H ruins meat if you body shoot the bunnies but so does the HMR. I found that I could confidently head shoot Rabbits at the same ranges as I did with the HMR but also take Foxes when I needed to. Also with the price of home loaded ammunition I could afford to use the rifle as my every day bunny basher. It was my gun of choice for 99% of my shooting and I put an awful lot of rounds through it.

 

I stick by my opinion that buying a .223 to sit in the cabinet for most of its life isn't a good plan. Much better to buy a gun which is a great substitute for one he already has and use the thing day in,day out placing the bullet in the right spot at 200 yards and be confident doing it. At the end of the day a pulled shot with an unfamiliar gun is a balls up no matter what the calibre, so shooting a .223 that he doesn't really know how to handle could be worse not better.

 

I need to do more research but it was this kind of thought process I was going through! I want to do the job properly and humanely and whilst I'm not adverse to having a gun that is rarely used, I am a firm believer that you have to build up your experience with a gun to be fully competent!

 

I'm on the Cheshire borders and atually covered by GMP. I dont suppose anyone knows for sure if GMP allow HMR for foxes or where I'm best going to find out other than calling them? I know you can take a fox with a .17 or even a .22 but I dont want to put them on notice I might do that by asking!

[Dekers]

There isn't an answer to the question, the most likely responses will be Hornet, .223, 22-250,..... so what happened to .243 as well?

 

The fact is my 3 Rimfires and 3 Centrefires are all conditioned for fox, and I occasionally have cause to use a shotgun on them as well.

 

The reality is I get involved with a lot of situations and there are times the .22lr is my first choice and times one of the centrefires is the first choice.

 

I have the choice so I can deal most effectively with a lot of different situations.

 

If you had to get one fox gun them a Hornet or .223 would be my suggestion, depending on your land!

 

You cannon generalise as everyones expectations and experience and confidence is different, I was in a situation tonight and took a fox at 120 yards with the HMR, it would not normally be my first choice, but I knew the gun and had the confidence, it worked!

[njc110381]

I can't really advise on Cheshire's view on the use of HMR for Fox. However I think it depends on your approach too. When I started out with my HMR Gloucestershire wouldn't allow it but then once I'd been shooting for a while I talked to my FEO and said that although I understood that it wasn't a "Foxing gun", would it not be possible to put them on the conditions so if one was within safe range (like under 50 yards) then I could shoot them. With that it was granted.

 

I think the best thing you can do is ring them. Tell them your situation and that you do understand the limitations of your rimfires but that you also know that at very close range they will work - and are very good for the job as long as you don't push your luck and take on longer shots. Also (if you'd rather use the HMR) suggest that you've been considering a centrefire for the job but that you don't think it will get much use in your present situation so you were hoping to keep your gun numbers to a minimum and use one you already have. They like that reasoning!

 

My suggestion would be to still swap the HMR for a Hornet, simply because I really like the little CF round. It's nothing like its bigger brothers and is very mild when moderated. There really isn't any need for bigger unless you need to start pushing those ranges out a long way. With that also consider that it provides over double the muzzle energy of the HMR. It really is a nice gentle step up into the centrefire world, where with some calibres muzzle energy goes up well past ten times what a HMR can achieve! Although these guns can be amazing to shoot there really is no need, they simply use more powder and erode their barrels away more quickly!

 

If you want to chat about the Hornet any time then drop me a PM. I'm sure I could find some good links for you to read and also tell you all I know about the calibre having used one quite a bit myself.

[macca]

Buy a good secondhand 222 and load it back to hornet velocities using 35 grain Vmax projectiles - kills foxes and doesnt destroy head shot rabbits. Easier to reload than the hornet. If you want to go exotic - 17rem fireball(17MachIV) or the ultimate small caliber rabbit /fox gun (and you will have to have a 222 rechambered to this) 221 fireball.

Cheers

Edited September 23, 2010 by macca

[ellebarto]

Buy a good secondhand 222 and load it back to hornet velocities using 35 grain Vmax projectiles - kills foxes and doesnt destroy head shot rabbits. Easier to reload than the hornet. If you want to go exotic - 17rem fireball(17MachIV) or the ultimate small caliber rabbit /fox gun (and you will have to have a 222 rechambered to this) 221 fireball.

Cheers

 

Woahhhh!! Sounding complex now!

 

I'm 12 months away from reloading my own stuff (house move) so small, simple, experience building is probably the level I am at.

 

223 or Hornet are the fron runners for me so far! Why cant I find new Hornets? Is that a slang for the calibre or a brand name?

[al4x]

as for fox what does your FAC say, personally I'm happy if it says vermin but my force allow foxes as vermin anyway but that is a side argument and one which no one has had it questioned before AFAIK Personally no way would I get rid of the HMR they are too handy why restrict yourself to sub 100 yards with a rimfire it just doesn't make sense when you have a gun that with factory ammo has enough clout for most vermin to 150 yards. crows and magpies in particular its a useful tool. Get yourself a fox gun and take it out when you go foxing its quite simple, especially if you lamp from a vehicle taking two guns is very simple and if not then you either go out after small stuff or mostly foxes. I've got an HMR and a .223 and they cover pretty much every eventuality, ok a .22 would do quiet stuff but we just wait till the horses are in to do the bunnies on the horse fields we have and its no big issue. With going for the slight hastle of getting a centrefire I wanted one with enough clout and the .223 does the job and it does it pretty cheaply whether factory or reloaded ammo. Pretty much flat to 200 yards, I wouldn't go out with a centrefire like a hornet bunny bashing as lets face it get a decent night and we can go through 100 rounds and that is silly with anything other than a rimfire. Cost wise thats £24 or so and you won't have many less than 100 rabbits to show for it so cost effective as well

[ellebarto]

as for fox what does your FAC say, personally I'm happy if it says vermin but my force allow foxes as vermin anyway but that is a side argument and one which no one has had it questioned before AFAIK Personally no way would I get rid of the HMR they are too handy why restrict yourself to sub 100 yards with a rimfire it just doesn't make sense when you have a gun that with factory ammo has enough clout for most vermin to 150 yards. crows and magpies in particular its a useful tool. Get yourself a fox gun and take it out when you go foxing its quite simple, especially if you lamp from a vehicle taking two guns is very simple and if not then you either go out after small stuff or mostly foxes. I've got an HMR and a .223 and they cover pretty much every eventuality, ok a .22 would do quiet stuff but we just wait till the horses are in to do the bunnies on the horse fields we have and its no big issue. With going for the slight hastle of getting a centrefire I wanted one with enough clout and the .223 does the job and it does it pretty cheaply whether factory or reloaded ammo. Pretty much flat to 200 yards, I wouldn't go out with a centrefire like a hornet bunny bashing as lets face it get a decent night and we can go through 100 rounds and that is silly with anything other than a rimfire. Cost wise thats £24 or so and you won't have many less than 100 rabbits to show for it so cost effective as well

 

Doh!! Lots of good advice but creating more questions than answers!! :(

 

Just checking my licence its says both .22rf and .17hmr to be used for vermin control so I guess that does cover me for foxes or do you have to specifically ask for foxes on your FAC? I mean I'm as sure as I can be that they dont licence you to shoot fox with a .22 so perhaps thats an oversight on there part!

[al4x]

Doh!! Lots of good advice but creating more questions than answers!! :(

 

Just checking my licence its says both .22rf and .17hmr to be used for vermin control so I guess that does cover me for foxes or do you have to specifically ask for foxes on your FAC? I mean I'm as sure as I can be that they dont licence you to shoot fox with a .22 so perhaps thats an oversight on there part!

 

 

if you ask they can only say no, some forces they are vermin some don't count them as vermin. The crucial bit is firstly you stand negligible chance of it being checked, secondly they have to argue foxes aren't vermin, thirdly they have to say HMR isn't capable of it, fourthly they would need to explain why other people have licences with HMR conditioned for fox. Personally I think if it was ever argued it would result in a rap on the knuckles and being told not to do it again rather than anything else. Ask them to clarify and of course after being told o you can't do it

[wymberley]

Woahhhh!! Sounding complex now!

 

I'm 12 months away from reloading my own stuff (house move) so small, simple, experience building is probably the level I am at.

 

223 or Hornet are the fron runners for me so far! Why cant I find new Hornets? Is that a slang for the calibre or a brand name?

Have a look at the top (un-deleted) entry on your list of guns. The 22 Hornet is a recognised rifle calibre.

Two points, unless I've missed it, you've never given us any idea on the likely foxing range and also home loading puts us in an all new ballpark with regard to ease and availability of materials. As you've indicated, make haste slowly and keep asking the questions.

Cheers

[ellebarto]

Have a look at the top (un-deleted) entry on your list of guns. The 22 Hornet is a recognised rifle calibre.

Two points, unless I've missed it, you've never given us any idea on the likely foxing range and also home loading puts us in an all new ballpark with regard to ease and availability of materials. As you've indicated, make haste slowly and keep asking the questions.

Cheers

 

Thinking of my permission and the lay of the land with good backstops I would have thought sub 200 yards with few exceptions!

[macca]

Woahhhh!! Sounding complex now!

 

I'm 12 months away from reloading my own stuff (house move) so small, simple, experience building is probably the level I am at.

 

223 or Hornet are the fron runners for me so far! Why cant I find new Hornets? Is that a slang for the calibre or a brand name?

The Hornet is more obsolete than the 222 - not many new guns around - also older guns take 223 projectiles rather than 224. Case is headspaced on the rim so if you have a oversize chamber then you can suffer with head separation. Brass is very thin and case has little shoulder - sometimes you can crush the case while seating the projectile. There are still many firearm manufacturers making 222's and ammo is still made. I have a 17mkII, 17MkIV, 223, 22br. They are work guns. These will all do what this thread has been talking about (the BR creates rabbit red mist though)

Cheers

Edited September 23, 2010 by macca

[wildfowler.250]

I think keep the two rimfires and get a .223. I've thought about changing the .17 for a .22hornet many times. As far as I can see it gives you more range and clout over the .17 but it also costs more,(not so bad if your reloading though). So if you are shooting a lot of rabbits then the .22H is going to be pricey. If it's a few rabbits/crows/foxes then I'd probably go for it! The main reason I don't have one currently is primarily due to the fact that I can take roe with the .223. The HMR fits nicely for me between lamping/close range .22 work and the fox sized targets and up,(anything around the 100 yard plus mark gets a little 17 grain vmax sent at it).

 

Have fun choosing though!

 

 

 

.22 magnum?

[Dougy]

222, 223,

 

If you start to reload the 222 will be allot more forgiving as far as precision preperation is concerned and still retain very good accuracy.

[Mr_Logic]

Hornet = reloader's gun only

.222 = getting that way

.223 = factory rounds

 

Any will kill a fox. Kent is talking BS when he says about not finding Hornet shooting MOA to 200 yards. My Hornet has shot well under .5 MOA 4-shot group at 225 yards, and shoots well under MOA all the time. They will kill a fox happily to 200 yards if you can shoot, and cost sod all to run in centrefire terms.

 

If you reload then any of them will do, if not, do yourself a favour and get .223 - factory is readily available and because of the quantity it is still possible to find ammo at a sensible price.

 

However.....

 

If it's really only the very occasional fox, knock them over sub 100 yards with a rimfire bullet to the head. Works a charm.

 

For a prosecution, they can only go for the legal view of non-compliance with FAC conditions. To do that, they have to PROVE that fox is not vermin. That ain't happenin', so you're good.

[kent]

Hornet = reloader's gun only

.222 = getting that way

.223 = factory rounds

 

Any will kill a fox. Kent is talking BS when he says about not finding Hornet shooting MOA to 200 yards. My Hornet has shot well under .5 MOA 4-shot group at 225 yards, and shoots well under MOA all the time. They will kill a fox happily to 200 yards if you can shoot, and cost sod all to run in centrefire terms.

 

If you reload then any of them will do, if not, do yourself a favour and get .223 - factory is readily available and because of the quantity it is still possible to find ammo at a sensible price.

 

However.....

 

If it's really only the very occasional fox, knock them over sub 100 yards with a rimfire bullet to the head. Works a charm.

 

For a prosecution, they can only go for the legal view of non-compliance with FAC conditions. To do that, they have to PROVE that fox is not vermin. That ain't happenin', so you're good.

 

Get real, he says occasional use and has no centrefires do you expect him to start playing about finding which brass suits his gun, which heads etc etc. In fairness a few who say one thing in this thread about the Hornet say things a little different in the hornet thread. No way am i gonna exept you can buy any off the shelf hornet with factory ammo and get sub 2" 5 shot groups at 200 yds with consistancy. Indeed in many shops they won't even have any ammo for one in stock let alone the choice. .223 rem and the guy could walk out with a box of 20 in three brands to try out even in a smaller shop. I still think the Hornet a fine gun but it aint gonna hold a candle to the others at 200yds though i exept that some will have a good Hornet and a re-load they can achieve impresive result with it just isnt the norm.

 

Total disagree with breaking the law and using a .22 LR and @ 100 yds field conditions few can place the first round within an inch of the aim point without lazering the target and messing around with wind and elivation dope. 100 yds is 4" of wind full value 10mph before we even look at elevation using subs (which are better at 100 yds than HV at this sort of range which are turning transonic and loosing thier accuraccy ). Real world foxing is see it guess the dope as your bringing your rifle to bear and squeeze and real world hunters don't exept a yelping fox running about injured as a good outcome

Edited September 23, 2010 by kent

[Mr_Logic]

Breaking the law? Where did I suggest breaking the law? Who even mentioned breaking a law? No law against shooting foxes with a rimfire!

 

All my hornets have shot MOA with factory rounds. They shoot better with handloads, for sure, but MOA is not a problem. Also the 35gr Hornady is a basic replica of my handload so I'm sure it will work also. No load workup was needed, just a max load with H110 and a 35gr vmax.

 

But, I did say hornet is for handloading.

 

For the occasional use, rimfire is fine!

[bullet boy]

Any .22 Centrefire is good enough for Charlie.I bought a Tikka T3 Lite in 22-250 which is a superb calibre IMO and an excellent make of rifle in my view too.

[jamie g]

Hornet = reloader's gun only

.222 = getting that way

.223 = factory rounds

 

Any will kill a fox. Kent is talking BS when he says about not finding Hornet shooting MOA to 200 yards. My Hornet has shot well under .5 MOA 4-shot group at 225 yards, and shoots well under MOA all the time. They will kill a fox happily to 200 yards if you can shoot, and cost sod all to run in centrefire terms.

 

If you reload then any of them will do, if not, do yourself a favour and get .223 - factory is readily available and because of the quantity it is still possible to find ammo at a sensible price.

 

However.....

 

If it's really only the very occasional fox, knock them over sub 100 yards with a rimfire bullet to the head. Works a charm.

 

For a prosecution, they can only go for the legal view of non-compliance with FAC conditions. To do that, they have to PROVE that fox is not vermin. That ain't happenin', so you're good.

 

 

there is lots of 222 factory ammo about mr l.

[Rem223]

I tend to agree with Mr. Logic. The Hornet is fine if you plan on reloading but realistically the .223 is a better bet. I would take a .223 over a .222 as well. Nothing intrinsically wrong with the triple deuce, but there is more variety of ammo in .223 available and it packs a bit more wallop.

[Mr_Logic]

there is lots of 222 factory ammo about mr l.

There is, but, cheapest stuff is Prvi, and then it's over a quid a bang. 223 has a lot of mid price stuff like American eagle which is perfectl decent And reasonably available.

[kent]

Breaking the law? Where did I suggest breaking the law? Who even mentioned breaking a law? No law against shooting foxes with a rimfire!

 

All my hornets have shot MOA with factory rounds. They shoot better with handloads, for sure, but MOA is not a problem. Also the 35gr Hornady is a basic replica of my handload so I'm sure it will work also. No load workup was needed, just a max load with H110 and a 35gr vmax.

 

But, I did say hornet is for handloading.

 

For the occasional use, rimfire is fine!

 

1" at 100yds will not just equate to 2" at 200yds accuraccy reduces expodentially with range. Just about any worthwhile rig is capable of MOA at 100yds. If you doubt this try actually shooting your rifles at 200yds and over. Multiple hornets doing sub 2" at 200yds? No load work? Just max what it says in book? Yeah you said it was realy a reloaders gun but you also thought similar of the .222

 

Refer to your earlier post about the legal stuff ( prosecution, no compliance etc) The rimfire is so "adequate" for foxes that a lot of Firearms departments consider it underpowered and inhumane, now thats a good one even the cops telling you to go out and get something more powerful

[al4x]

Refer to your earlier post about the legal stuff ( prosecution, no compliance etc) The rimfire is so "adequate" for foxes that a lot of Firearms departments consider it underpowered and inhumane, now thats a good one even the cops telling you to go out and get something more powerful

 

 

a lot hold the opposite view as well so make of that what you may, I think he was referring to 100 yards with HMR rather than .22lr but that is a side issue. Fundamentally rimfires are fine under the right conditions which are close and usually you don't go after fox with them. The hornet for me is always an enthusiasts caliber rather than a proper foxing tool you'll have to jump through just as many hoops to get it as any .22 centrefire so why not go for one with plenty of wallop no such thing as overkill when you get to foxes and the .223 will give you far more leeway for error. I had to shoot one in a gale at over 200 yards last week, first shot I could get having seen it a lot and it bolting so when it stood still despite it being a gale I took it. Drifted a little so hit just behind the last rib and it went all of 6ft and was well dead by the time the dog got out there.

[kent]

a lot hold the opposite view as well so make of that what you may, I think he was referring to 100 yards with HMR rather than .22lr but that is a side issue. Fundamentally rimfires are fine under the right conditions which are close and usually you don't go after fox with them. The hornet for me is always an enthusiasts caliber rather than a proper foxing tool you'll have to jump through just as many hoops to get it as any .22 centrefire so why not go for one with plenty of wallop no such thing as overkill when you get to foxes and the .223 will give you far more leeway for error. I had to shoot one in a gale at over 200 yards last week, first shot I could get having seen it a lot and it bolting so when it stood still despite it being a gale I took it. Drifted a little so hit just behind the last rib and it went all of 6ft and was well dead by the time the dog got out there.

I would feel more confident at 50yds and the .22lr and a 40 grain pill than 100yds and the HMR with a fragmenting pill of half the weight personally that said my force don't allow either, my experiace with HMR which i also use a lot on other things is unpredictability . I am not decrying the Hornet here one bit just the instance you point out above "real world foxing" indecates why i don't think it a practical 200 yds fox gun. Right ammo, right gun, right day, right shot sure no issues but that ain't real world. I better leave this thread or i will be hunted down by the.22 Hornet lovers club

[al4x]

I tell you what the HMR works surprisingly well at both ranges, possibly better the further out it is as it expands less violently, the 20g will go straight through the boiler room at 100 yards which isn't ideal as they run but don't get too far. At one point this year I'd shot more with mine than the .223 simply as they were in places we didn't want to use a centrefire. Engine room shots as well as you know they won't go far and more room for error. Though pretty much every time the hound is on standby just in case though only been needed on one runner I can remember and that was with the .223 just too far back as it was moving at the time, didn't make cover before she got to it and was dead by the time I got there

Edited September 24, 2010 by al4x

[wymberley]

There we go, job done!

To be fair, the 22LR out to 100yd advocate did not specify subs so we'll look at supers as well.

Subs are about 70ft/lbs at 100yds and supers about 100.

Now, I get the former at 300yds and the latter at 200.

As these distances meet/exceed your needs what you require is the40gr RWS round in a 22WMR and you're home and dry.

And if you believe that, you'll beli............