Nightrider Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 What users of Sonic type plugs appear to fail to realise is that (as stated previously) there is NO WAY that the solid, stationary internal metal components of a sound activated blocking device can OPERATE at a speed in excess of the Speed of Sound. They would have to accelerate from Zero (stationary) to in excess of 1040 feet per second, in a millisecond, to be able to close the sound wave getting past them while the components accelerate up to that speed to close the mechanical valves. If anyone on earth can prove this can be done, PLEASE do so! Scientists and senior audioligists explained to me why this could not be achieved over 20 years ago. IF some miracle has happened since, I'll happily let that be known. Meanwhile I continue to believe it not possible. The Reason some folk think they work is for the reduced ongoing sound once the valves do catch up and close. The numbers of long-term users of such devices now suffering from Tinnitus type hearing conditions rather indicates the shortcomings of such devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibble Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 Phone some of the Moulded Earplug companies and ask for a SNR and see if you get a straight answer, I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacko3275 Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Nightrider said: What users of Sonic type plugs appear to fail to realise is that (as stated previously) there is NO WAY that the solid, stationary internal metal components of a sound activated blocking device can OPERATE at a speed in excess of the Speed of Sound. They would have to accelerate from Zero (stationary) to in excess of 1040 feet per second, in a millisecond, to be able to close the sound wave getting past them while the components accelerate up to that speed to close the mechanical valves. If anyone on earth can prove this can be done, PLEASE do so! Scientists and senior audioligists explained to me why this could not be achieved over 20 years ago. IF some miracle has happened since, I'll happily let that be known. Meanwhile I continue to believe it not possible. The Reason some folk think they work is for the reduced ongoing sound once the valves do catch up and close. The numbers of long-term users of such devices now suffering from Tinnitus type hearing conditions rather indicates the shortcomings of such devices. Am no expert but if I take the plug out there’s a hell of a lot more bang so they can’t not be making it better for my ears and 20 year ago I had a car that was the bees knees with 150bhp but now I have car that is a diesel estate but yet will out perform the car from 20 year ago things change P.s you prove it can’t be done Edited February 22, 2019 by Jacko3275 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diver One Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 I had a set of the sonic shooters ( I assume the type that looks like a honey spoon thing, neutral,silicone rubber with about 4 ridges?) worked fine until,it was windy. Awful resonance when the wind whistled past and vibrated them. Got a set of basic CENS 12 months ago...best thing ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 "Am no expert but if I take the plug out there’s a hell of a lot more bang so they can’t not be making it better for my ears and 20 year ago I had a car that was the bees knees with 150bhp but now I have car that is a diesel estate but yet will out perform the car from 20 year ago things change" P.s you prove it can’t be done -------------------------------------------- I think your first three words explain why you cannot seem to undesrtand what is being stated here. I got my information, over 20 years ago, from a USA Military physician, and Audiologists the Military had engaged to check if the hearing protection provided to the US Military was adequate. Tests they had done clearly showed that the Sonic type 'hearing Protection' could NOT act fast enough to prevent the sound pressure wave hitting the eadrums. The number of shooters who have used such designs of plugs for years, now suffering Tinnitus, rather indicates that the hearing experts were right all along. It is not my place to prove anything. But, and more to the point:... Why has no-one who is so happy to respond negatively to someone trying to help shooters from indavertently DAMAGING their hearing (through thinking they are adequately protected, when they may well not be)...BUT... do not have the gumption to ASK for PROOF that these devices CAN work from the folk who make, sell and profit from them??.... Typical of the short sighted nature of too many who shoot I'm afraid. ASK the MAKERS for prooof; they have had 25 years plus to come up with some!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacko3275 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 And what I’m saying is 20 years ago they may not have worked 20 year ago you couldn’t use the net on your phone technology moves on and improves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibble Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 At the clay ground I shoot at you might be standing next to people shooting Black Powder, 12 bore and .410, BOOM, BANG,CRACK. I understand enough physics to see how a mechanical device or chamber might be tuned to some frequencies but not the range we encounter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 "And what I’m saying is 20 years ago they may not have worked 20 year ago you couldn’t use the net on your phone technology moves on and improves " And, what I am saying, the pysical laws that govern movement of any staionary object, namely INERTIA (the desire of any staionary object to stay in that state until sufficient force is applied to make it move) STILL applies and at the same rate it did 20,years, and 20million years ago... No; nothing has chnged to alter the problem as to WHY they didn't work 20 years ago IF they have found the magic formuat to overcome inertia at a rate previously unknown, I'm sure they would be famous by now. AND, as they make and profit from the product, it would be in their interest to TELL people. So, having had 20 plus years to test them and provide the proof, why do they not do so?? Because they cannot. ... And those who would rather argue the point made than seek truth are as much a part of the problem as those who supply the equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog1408 Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 Those that are blinkered and stuck in their ways are also part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 Members 619 posts From:East Sussex Report post Posted 5 hours ago Those that are blinkered and stuck in their ways are also part of the problem. I know; I meet them all the time on here. Quite common over the many years it has been my job to answer technical questions regarding many aspects of shooting; I have met most types during that time. And they still abound. They have no knowledge of the subject, NO facts to back up their blinkered views (which they then present on sights like this as though they DO know); unbelievable...but happens all the time.. They are not even capable of doing the sensible thing; like ask the questions of themakers of poorly performing products, which they happiliy buy and support, in their blissful ignorance. You cannot help people with that mentality; so I shall waste no more of my time trying to help them protect their hearing. If they cannot think for themselves, life might be better for them if they cannot hear either. Its their hearing getting damaged, not mine. It is just a shame that such ignorance could lead to others, seeking advice, being confused and also buying less than satisfactory goods. That really is a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacko3275 Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 So you know technical things and the laws of physics don’t change as as been said. so your telling me that you work somewhere or know some one that as recently tested these or any other type of sonic plugs that prove technology can’t advance . Surely in this day and age there are test which have to be passed to sell these thing in our country .. sonic 2 are cheap so maybe not proven but there are types that are hundreds of pounds and are at ce or bsi standard .does this they are wrong and Does this mean you know more more than the engineers and scientist that work for these people and why would they answer the phone to joe blogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 You have never done any research ,or analytical study, have you. It shows. Sorry but this is not a forum for teaching people the basics they should have grasped at school. I've told you what is wrong with them. IF you really wanted to know, you would do some resaerch yourself. Clearly you would rather arugue with someone trying to assist ... and than move off at a tangent... than address what is put before you. Frankly pathetic. You know my views on this and I have told you how I came by those views. I have also pointed out that the numbers of users of these products now suffering tinnitus is an indicator that more research is needed. One such made that clear on a FB shooting forum very recently. I don't and won't use any sonic type product because that do not offer adequate protection. I have let people know my concerns. When they would rather argue than seek information, particulalery from manufacturers (who stand to gain by selling the product and have the money and also had years to come up with verifiable evidence) I can do no more. There it is. Take it or leave it. Its your hearing and not mine. I have far more important things to do than carry on this nonsense. Be happy; even if you do end up deaf. I tried; I'm happy with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strimmer_13 Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 Sorry didnt catch all that, could you repeat it again 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 Sorry; can't help some folk.... Good bye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord v Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 The Surefires I have are just solid plugs with no moving parts with small plastic cap you can remove to reduce the suppression (if you wanted to for some bizarre reason, its too fiddly for my fat fingers to manage on the fly to hear conversation, far easier to just remove the entire piece). I do find their ear piece quite comfy and good at holding the plug in. Up to their EP5 model the plug is a flanged silicon. The EP7 and 10's have a solid foam plug. I quite rate their product for the price. I wouldn't be trusting any product that relied on a moving part to provide sound protection. Because physics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibble Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, Jacko3275 said: So you know technical things and the laws of physics don’t change as as been said. so your telling me that you work somewhere or know some one that as recently tested these or any other type of sonic plugs that prove technology can’t advance . Surely in this day and age there are test which have to be passed to sell these thing in our country .. sonic 2 are cheap so maybe not proven but there are types that are hundreds of pounds and are at ce or bsi standard .does this they are wrong and Does this mean you know more more than the engineers and scientist that work for these people and why would they answer the phone to joe blogs There are tests, if you look on the side of my ear defenders it has a EN number to show it's conformity to standards and a SNR number to indicate how many decibels they reduce sound by. SNR is single number rating and it is a sort of average for noise of different frequencies, mine have a SNR of 29, my son's are 35 (from memory). I asked several moulded earplug companies for the SNR of their products and they did not answer. Surely if it was a good rating they would shout it from the rooftops, or at least give Joe Blogs a straight answer. Edited February 27, 2019 by Dibble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strimmer_13 Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 18 aint a lot is it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibble Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 That's a NRR not a SNR so it's actually a bit better than it looks but remember the decibel scale is logarithmic, the difference between 18dB and my ear defenders 29dB is 11dB, for each 1dB reduction the noise reduction is doubled! So my ear defenders reduce by 11dB more than those or a factor of 1x2,x2,x2,x2,x2x2,x2,x2,x2,x2,x2=2048 My son's are SNR35 or a reduction of 1/ 262,144 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Dibble said: each 1dB reduction the noise reduction is doubled! Sorry to be pedantic but the figure is 3dB not 1 with respect to the scale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibble Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 A level physics was a long while ago, I thought the figures looked funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord v Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 SNR is generally a more reliable rating than NRR, despite a higher statistical deviation tolerance. (NRR relates to the reduction in 98% of tests, SNR 80%ish) NRR is the American system based on lab testing, SNR is the EU system based on actual 'naïve' fit. OSHA (American HSE) have a down rate system for NRR to take into account poor fit, it is quite drastic at 50%ish for in ear defence (its 25% for muffs). In practice the down rate is a very blunt tool and way more drastic than would be actually experienced. My surefires have an NRR of 26db - The OSHA down rate would mean that I have to read that as 13db. In practice there is very little difference between them and my howard leigh muffs with an SNR of 30db. The US introduced a NRR(SF) rating which is more closely associated to SNR, but few manufacturers have submitted their products for that test.... go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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