woodentermite Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 was just wanting to know what semi auto shell capacity are you allowed on an sgc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 2+1 (two in the mag, 1 in the chamber) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodentermite Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 2+1 (two in the mag, 1 in the chamber) so any more than a 3 shot and you have to have a firearms cert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agjm Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 so any more than a 3 shot and you have to have a firearms cert? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterzone2 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 That would be the case mate 2+1 on SGC 3+1 onwards is FAC FAC not hard to get like ALL FAC firearms it a case of having the reason so say your taking out rats claim 3 shots ain't enough. But It is illegal to shoot certain animals etc with a sec1 shotgun section2 shotgun is pretty much do what you need to with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodentermite Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 That would be the case mate 2+1 on SGC 3+1 onwards is FAC FAC not hard to get like ALL FAC firearms it a case of having the reason so say your taking out rats claim 3 shots ain't enough. But It is illegal to shoot certain animals etc with a sec1 shotgun section2 shotgun is pretty much do what you need to with it. im under 18 and i can get my firearms cert. if i did unlike a rifle would i be able to use any more than a 3 shot without supervision? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterzone2 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 As a minor (under18) your on different grounds not that I have a problem with under 18s and firearms I am all for it. Right you really need to speak to your firearms unit they may say you have to have someone with you when using them Your best bet is to stick with SGC for now use the Semi auto under any conditions they have set you, then go for FAC in say 6 months to a year. Claim 2+1 ain't enough (remembering some animals etc are illegal to shoot with sec1 shotguns) and then you'll have experience of using a semi auto (which police may look for) and have proven yourself safe with one Also you may be able to claim a pump action for night shooting (safety reasons) as well or instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 i may be wrong but because of the EU things the law was amended meaning you have to be 18 not 17 to buy Sec 1 or 2 weapons, i think i might br wrong consideing noone has raised this yet but i think i remember reasong something from basc on it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burpster Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) But It is illegal to shoot certain animals etc with a sec1 shotgun Errrrrm which ones? I would be intrigued to know from where you got that snippet of information..... Edited March 9, 2011 by The Burpster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW682 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) Errrrrm which ones? I would be intrigued to know from where you got that snippet of information..... Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. Section 5 lists various methods that are generally* illegal for killing birds eg semi auto greater than 2+1, sound recordings, dazzling devices etc. Section 11 has a similar list for certain animals specified in Schedule 6. * The general licenses tend to over-ride this general rule and allow FAC semi-autos for certain bird pest species but that still leaves it illegal for game, wildfowl etc. Edit: note that in the main text of section 5 and 11 it refers to "automatic weapon" or "semi-automatic weapon". However in section 27 which lists the definitions it states: "automatic weapon" and "semi-automatic weapon" do not include any weapon the magazine of which is incapable of holding more than 2 rounds. in other words when it says semi-automatic weapon it effectively means what we would call an FAC semi auto. This definition sometimes causes confusion when reading the general licenses. Edited March 10, 2011 by HW682 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenhunter Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Has anyone noticed that if you have a 3" chambered semi the mag will take 3x2" shells! Just do the maths...3" x 2 = 6"(2 x 3" shells) 2" x 3 also = 6! I guess its not legal to take advantage of it so I would never do it GH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Has anyone noticed that if you have a 3" chambered semi the mag will take 3x2" shells! Just do the maths...3" x 2 = 6"(2 x 3" shells) 2" x 3 also = 6! I guess its not legal to take advantage of it so I would never do it GH Unlikely to chamber them reliably tho... the law is on the magazine capacity the fact you can chamber a round and add another to the mag is a technical loophole that is exploited, apparently the magazine length is dictated by the shell length that the gun is proofed for, there was bit of fuss when 3 1/2" semis came out with some insisting that the 7" + magazine tube meant they were all section 1. There is also "ghost loading" so you can squeeze more than 2 in whether it is legal is grey area (one i hope doesnt get tested), sensible definitely not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhawk Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) Benellis used to be able to be ghost loaded but they have changed the design so u cant do this,put in for a fac and have a 10shot make sure u can afford to run it though . Edited March 10, 2011 by silverhawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nic Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 View PostThe Burpster, on 09 March 2011 - 10:26 PM, said: Errrrrm which ones? I would be intrigued to know from where you got that snippet of information..... Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. . . . You cannot go wildfowling with a section 1 weapon under that act Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burpster Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Guys, I'm fine with your replies, the Wildfowling issue I wasn't aware of but the others I was ( however as I have no interest in Wildfowling I have little need to know the rules and protocols in place for it at this time). So whilst that is useful (to some degree) I wonder why the post pointing it out in the first place, when it is pretty obvious that FAC shotguns have limited use for 2 very obvious reasons. 1. No-one in their right mind would turn up anywhere to shoot game with a semi of any description let alone a large mag version. Turning up at a clay ground with one would probably result in you being asked to leave. 2. Certainly in my county you can only show "reason for ownership" for multi shot Semi if it is for PEST control or PSG and these conditions are placed on your ticket. Therefore you would hope that anyone applying for an FAC would understand what limitations to use the gun has before using it, and what the consequences of not adhering to that would be....? That being said when some idiot has been shooting swans with an air rifle - maybe that's a hope too far...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterzone2 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 My bottom line point was to inform this minor that in some cases it is illegal to use sec1 shotguns on some animals and that he should talk to his firearms unit 1st no good him applying for an FAC shotgun and getting told no because those action would be illegal. Also this 3" chamber 2" shell thing read in gun mart this case went to court years ago and the ruling came out as those shotguns wouldn't cycle correctly so there for the attempt to do it would be seen as illegal. Ghosting can't be illegal as the gun holds the rounds once one has been fired and ejected the round is no longer in the shotgun so. If it was illegal surely the act of carrying rounds on you and reloading would be illegal. And it common to do in PSG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK38 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 My bottom line point was to inform this minor that in some cases it is illegal to use sec1 shotguns on some animals and that he should talk to his firearms unit 1st no good him applying for an FAC shotgun and getting told no because those action would be illegal. Also this 3" chamber 2" shell thing read in gun mart this case went to court years ago and the ruling came out as those shotguns wouldn't cycle correctly so there for the attempt to do it would be seen as illegal. Ghosting can't be illegal as the gun holds the rounds once one has been fired and ejected the round is no longer in the shotgun so. If it was illegal surely the act of carrying rounds on you and reloading would be illegal. And it common to do in PSG. Surely the whole point is the law states 2+1, so any attempt to get round that by using shorter cartridges or holding the cartridge in the gun breaks the law by increasing the ammount the weapon can fire without reloading. I thought PSG was done with FAC rated guns , so if thats the case it's quite legal. Making the weapon capable of firing more than the law allows is very different from carrying rounds on you to reload. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Surely the whole point is the law states 2+1, so any attempt to get round that by using shorter cartridges or holding the cartridge in the gun breaks the law by increasing the ammount the weapon can fire without reloading. I thought PSG was done with FAC rated guns , so if thats the case it's quite legal. Making the weapon capable of firing more than the law allows is very different from carrying rounds on you to reload. Dave You're confusing two issues; the legislation concerns itself with the number of cartridges held in the MAGAZINE, ghost loading puts the extra cartridge on the shell plate, and therefore is not in the magazine and is therefore not in breach of the legislation. Putting more than 2 short cartridges into the magazine of a S2 3" or 3.5" gun is breaching the legislation and therefore is illegal. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK38 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 You're confusing two issues; the legislation concerns itself with the number of cartridges held in the MAGAZINE, ghost loading puts the extra cartridge on the shell plate, and therefore is not in the magazine and is therefore not in breach of the legislation. Putting more than 2 short cartridges into the magazine of a S2 3" or 3.5" gun is breaching the legislation and therefore is illegal. Mark I'm don't think i'm confusing anything, the law allows carrying three rounds to be ready to fire,2+1, by holding one on the plate surely you are increasing the carrying capacity to four, 2+1+1..... have you run this past your FEO ? and is he happy with this ? I wouldnt fancy your chances testing this legaly.... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) What feo's are happy with and the law are totally different, the law was designed to make semi and pump 2 shot but they didn't consider the fact a round can be chambered and another added to magazine the law is fixed mag of capacity 2 nothing about having and extra one in the breach there are triple barrel guns and quads, not sure how these are classed as very rare either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges; and http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27 Edited March 12, 2011 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK38 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 What foe's are happy with and the law are totally differen, the law was designed to make semi and pump 2 shot but they didn't consider the fact a round can be chambered and another added to magazine the law is fixed mag of capacity 2 nothing about having and extra one in the breach there are triple barrel guns and quads, not sure how these are classed as very rare http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27 What FEO's ,FLO's or the Chief Constable are happy with may not be the same as written law... we agree on that. But after reading through the link you provided i'm still not convinced that they would be happy with us shooting anything other than a 3 shot (2+1) unless it's on FAC. The fact that you can bypass the system by holding one in the gun doesn't to my mind make it legal..... you must be increasing the reserve capacity from two to three... doesn't that make the shell carrier an extension to the mag ? If you feel your assumptions are correct, would you put it to the test and run it by the Police ?............ i await the outcome...... If you are happy to go on using your gun like that , then carry on..... i won't be joining you anytime soon. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) If you feel your assumptions are correct, would you put it to the test and run it by the Police ?............ i await the outcome...... If you are happy to go on using your gun like that , then carry on..... i won't be joining you anytime soon. Dave I think you misunderstand, I dont and have never owned a semi auto, ghost loaded or tried such an experiment. It's hypothetical situation, "magazine Capacity" is part of proof procedure nothing to do with the design of the loading mechanism, if the law stated internal capacity of only 2 shells (i believe the intended implication) then i would agree, poorly drafted legislation and loopholes are what the brittish legal system runs on. look at the case of 3.5" chambered semi's easily hold more than 2 shorter shells but are "magazine capacity of 2 x 3.5" so confirmed section 2. If you choose to stick 3 carts in you may be breaching the law it hasnt as far as i know been tested. The fact section 2 semis are seen as 2+1 is in itself a loophole just an accepted one Edited March 12, 2011 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) I don't need to run it by my FEO for two reasons; i have S1 shotgun slots on my ticket, and the owner of my gun club contacted the Home Office firearms department 2 years ago for an answer and he was told that although it wasn't 'in the spirit' of the legislation it is technically legal as the shell carrier isn't the magazine. As the HO tell FLD's what is and isn't the correct interpretation of firearms legislation (if the FLD's bother to ask them and don't just make it up as they go along ), i'm personally happy that it is legal. Firearms Amendment Act 1988 (1)Section 1 of the principal Act shall have effect with the following amendments the purpose of which is to require a firearm certificate for certain types of shot gun.. (2)For paragraph (a) of subsection (3) (which exempts shot guns with barrels not less than 24 inches in length) there shall be substituted—. “(a)a shot gun within the meaning of this Act, that is to say a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which—. (i)has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter;. (ii)either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges . . . . For me the wording of the legislation is clear and you can't go re-designating shotgun parts just to fit in with the legislation, a shell carrier is a shell carrier, not a magazine. The total capacity of the gun is not mentioned in the legislation, only the capacity of the magazine. As you've make clear it makes no odds to you as you don't/won't do it, and i have S1 shotguns i'm not exactly sure why we're having this conversation Mark Edited March 12, 2011 by Breastman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK38 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Mark , as you have section 1 anyway..... I'm not sure why we're having this conversation either As you have asked 'the question ' and had an answer that satisfies you , then thats good enough. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK38 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) double post, sorry Dave Edited March 12, 2011 by MK38 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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