welsh warrior Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 been out today with my 17 hmr and i came acorss a fox about a good 80 90 yds out sitting against a small slag heap.i moved into my fireing position and took the shot.dropped him like a bucket of bricks.now ive got to ask why is there so many against the use of 17 hmr on a fox ? seams to me it can handle the task very well and i felt confident even before the shot was taken that this cal can do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) What you'll find is that there are some people out there who firmly believe that the HMR will drop an elephant at 1000 yards Whilst the bullet carries enough energy between 125-250 yards to kill a fox, I really believe that they should not be shot at that distance with an HMR. (Not saying you did, just my general rule of thumb) Edited April 4, 2011 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh warrior Posted April 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 haha well no i dont think thats at all lol . but 50 to 100 yds for a fox shot i think is just right .but there seams to be a lack of confidence about this cal on a fox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy111 Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 There's a very good article in this months "Modern Gamekeeping" about this and I think, as what most serious fox shooters do as well. It is ok as a medium range rifle and will do it's job efficiently, with good shot placement. If you want to consistantly take foxes over 100yds shots, get a better tool. During the day now, the hmr is permanantly with me, leave the big boy at home, for lamping :yp: , but if a fox appeared somewhere, I'd try to get it somehow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy111 Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Double post Edited April 4, 2011 by wy111 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) haha well no i dont think thats at all lol . but 50 to 100 yds for a fox shot i think is just right .but there seams to be a lack of confidence about this cal on a fox The problem with HMR is that, whilst it is a cracking flat, fast round, it's design and that wonderful speed it carries can be it's own worst enemy. There is no doubt that .17HMR will be carrying enough energy to kill a fox at the ranges you talk about but if the bullet comes into contact with a particularly stubborn bony bit of said fox before it meets soft tissue it will explode without penetrating but will very probably leave a very big gaping wound meaning charlie will die an unpleasant death somewhere. This is why some feel that it is not enough for a humane kill EVERY TIME. At the end of the day, you could kill a fox with a sub 12ft/lb .22 air rifle if you could get close enough and put the pellet in the right place. Edited April 4, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 been out today with my 17 hmr and i came acorss a fox about a good 80 90 yds out sitting against a small slag heap.i moved into my fireing position and took the shot.dropped him like a bucket of bricks.now ive got to ask why is there so many against the use of 17 hmr on a fox ? seams to me it can handle the task very well and i felt confident even before the shot was taken that this cal can do it. The main 'problem' seems one of justification in that there is more potential for something to go wrong if Brer Fox moves a tad as or just after the shot is taken. That's a fair sized "IF the wheels fall off" but it sometimes happens. A C/F bullet gets there quicker and does more damage to the tissue so there is more damage in less time. Add to the mix of additional reasons is that many are compelled by their FLO to acquire a C/F for the job if they want to get Fox legal - and they HAD to cite a good reason to acquire the caliber even if they prefered to be conditioned to use the HMR (I had to go with this option) You can see the morals and conflict here: Having stated (I/you) required a C/F, I/you then use a rimfire? Then there's the bit where the FEO says HMR is ok for a close shot but doesn't put it in writing - but it's not in the guidelines so if there is an issue his bum gets twitchy. It makes sense on a stroll round for rabbit to use the HMR for any legal vermin the rifle is conditioned for, and if you are legal with it you are luckier than many if foxy appears close enough on your travels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Seen too many run off 100 + meters before going down, and usually then not dead, and that's with chest shots or slightly off head shots. It just lacks any stopping power that allows you that fine margin of error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyblanco Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 What you'll find is that there are some people out there who firmly believe that the HMR will drop an elephant at 1000 yards Or go straight through a railway sleeper and has no drop in trajectory from 100 to 300 yds I have had more runners with the .223 but only because I keep the HMR for close range sub 100yds shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) The biggest problem with using a 17HMR for foxes is that shot placement needs to be very accurate and the range has to be kept within a reasonable distance of say 100 yards maximum. As long as those two factors are taken into consideration there should is problem dropping foxes with the 17HMR. However the problems arise in that if the 17HMR was legally allowed as a "Foxing Calibre" (I know that it is allowed in some areas and not in others and it is high time they all started singing from the same hymn sheet) then there is a possibility of some "trigger happy" or "inexperienced shooters" forgetting about and/or misjudging the range or not getting the bullet placement spot on and the fox being severly wounded and left to suffer and die in pain. To add to that the 17HMR is known for the fact that the bullet has a tendancy to disintegrate as soon as it hits any bones and if for instance the shot placement was such that it hit a rib the bullet would no doubt disintegrate on impact leaving a big hole on the foxes side without getting a chance to penetrate into the lungs or heart leaving a terrible wound but still allowing the fox to run off and die in pain elsewhere. With these points in mind I remain "sitting on the fence" where the 17HMR and foxes are concerned so I would be interested in hearing other shooters views on the matter! Edit: I should add that I am a great lover of the 17HMR and would not be without mine! Edited April 5, 2011 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Fox Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 My opinion only … I have a problem with using it as a "fox gun" ie someone who goes out after fox only with it. If I am foxing, I take the 243, if I am after rabbits I take my 17hmr, if a fox appears and I can get it into a sensible range (sub 100yards) I will shoot it. My first ever trip out with the hmr I shot 2 foxes (dog/vixen) at 100yards and they were side by side… I know the gun works at a sensible distance. There are times when a 17hmr is a good choice for fox if the situation demands it, but out & out foxing gun/caliber it isn't. That is not about being a hater - I love my 17hmr & and wish I could shoot other guns pretty close to bullet on bullet accuracy at 100 yards. (ok maybe 10p coin!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 I have formed the opinion over the years that a lot of hype surrounding the 17 comes from the fact a lot of people are granted them as their first 'proper' gun. They may previously have shot air guns or shotguns and got an HMR on their first ticket, so they are naturally very excited about it's ability. It's speed is referred to already in this thread, I know it is only a rimfire, but is 2500 ft/sec really that fast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Fox Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Dunkield - excellent point and on the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 It's speed is referred to already in this thread, I know it is only a rimfire, but is 2500 ft/sec really that fast? exactly and its slowing down all the time, thats why it doesn't seem to explode on foxes as folk imagine, I chest shoot them with mine and you get the odd one run a short way but most drop straight away, its an opportunist caliber when rabbiting or for sitting out in places you don't want to use a centrefire. In those situations it gives you a fair bit more clout than a .22lr long range dedicated fox gun it isn't but keep them close it does the job well as long as you don't use the 20 grain bullets on chest shots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 I have formed the opinion over the years that a lot of hype surrounding the 17 comes from the fact a lot of people are granted them as their first 'proper' gun. They may previously have shot air guns or shotguns and got an HMR on their first ticket, so they are naturally very excited about it's ability. It's speed is referred to already in this thread, I know it is only a rimfire, but is 2500 ft/sec really that fast? By gum, now we know why you're a "moderator"............best post ever and spot on the money. When I was a young schoolboy I had am old Winchester pump .22lr. A real proper gun that would kill anything I pointed it at. Rabbits, foxes and even Red deer fell at my feet, I'd hate to think how many foxes that little rifle accounted for. However, as my experience and expectations grew I realized that I was terribly limited by the range that this little cannon would kill at so I bent fathers ear and eventually he coughed up for a hornet. Fantastic, doubled the range I could shoot at overnight and there was nothing I couldn't shoot with it. For many years it served me well until these new fangled calibers started to appear and I persuaded my newly acquired wife to let me spent the housekeeping on a 22.250. First thing I shot with it was a Red at about 150 yds. It just fell down stone dead, never seen anything like it, not only did it roar like a cannon but it killed like one to. Moral of this story.............any caliber will kill, and kill humanely. It just depends at what distance you wish to do it at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) I am in the "not the perfect tool for foxing camp" for the simple reason I sat in a high seat one night, fox at 100 yards, and I fired 5 (yes FIVE!) shots before that fox stopped running round in circles trying to chew it's self, it was horrific to watch.. I thought the rifle was out of zero or I had misplaced the shot, but when I got to the fox all 5 shots where within 2" around the heart/lung area... It just simply didn't have the thump behind it in my opinion. As has been said - fine if a fox wanders within 100 yards of you when shooting bunnies, but not as a dedicated 150 yard foxing tool. Regards, Gixer Edited April 5, 2011 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 My dedicated fox rifle is a 22-250 and it certainly does the job but i have my 17HMR conditioned for fox, only for the occaision when charlie might come into reasonable range and present a good shot whem i am using the HMR on rabbits. I would never dream of using it as a dedicated fox rifle. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Either you've been at the Buckfast again, or you've changed your name to Robbob I am in the "not the perfect tool for foxing camp" for the simple reason I sat in a high seat one night, fox at 100 yards, and I fired 5 (yes FIVE!) shots before that fox stopped running round in circles trying to chew it's self, it was horrific to watch.. I thought the rifle was out of zero or I had misplaced the shot, but when I got to the fox all 5 shots where within 2" around the heart/lung area... It just simply didn't have the thump behind it in my opinion. As has been said - fine if a fox wanders within 100 yards of you when shooting bunnies, but not as a dedicated 150 yard foxing tool. Regards, Gixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Either you've been at the Buckfast again, or you've changed your name to Robbob Why's that then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 a 2" 5 shot group on a moving fox thats some shooting seriously though are you sure it was 100 yards or were you using the 20 grain hollow points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 That or his feet are as big as his nose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 a 2" 5 shot group on a moving fox thats some shooting seriously though are you sure it was 100 yards or were you using the 20 grain hollow points. What a load of drivel alex, i never said it was moving when i fired, the fox was running trying to chew it's side and then putting it's head on the ground which was when the shots were taken, there are 2 other members on this forum who were in high seats close by that night and who heard the shots... it was the BT's...V-max i think.. Here is the very fox - shot from the high seat in the back ground when it was on the wall you see to the left, where it lies now is where it stopped moving... Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 That or his feet are as big as his nose Exactly why do i need to lie gary? don't be a ****....I have nothing to gain from telling stories...I never claim to shoot fantastic groups but 2" with an HMR at 100ish yards is no big deal is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 not had one do that with BT's at all, 20 grainers I had two run but the dog picked them dead, entry and exit wound on the chest just not enough trauma on the way through. On 30 or so others they always seem to go down but a couple needed a second shot. It was 2" with it running around seemed a bit like Jackanory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) not had one do that with BT's at all, 20 grainers I had two run but the dog picked them dead, entry and exit wound on the chest just not enough trauma on the way through. On 30 or so others they always seem to go down but a couple needed a second shot. It was 2" with it running around seemed a bit like Jackanory Alex, no jackanory, but then I was looking at entry wounds so maybe the 2" wasn't measured with a vernier! from the size of the body of a fox it was around that...as said, it was everytime it stopped to put it's head down i fired as i think most people would... they were all in the place where I was aiming is what I should have said the end outcome is the same - had that been a CF that fox would have been dead on the wall, it was almost as if the round was zipping right through. Regards, Gixer Edited April 5, 2011 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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