kent Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) can i just say while talking f-class, the v bull is not intended to be something you can shoot a clear round on but the desiding factor between two top scores for posision. Bench rest records are (because they have to be) one single group as this could potentially be done by fluke it is the average group size thats the big factor in bench shooting, sure single groups recieve acolades but its the average that the chased factor. I have with my own .243" sporting rifle shot 100yd screemers fact is i also did it once with a reticule that was thicker at the said 100yds than the group- how can i say from that my gun is sub 1/4 moa? easy i can't! The measure of a guns accurccy is it average group size not its best ever. In deed i recently posted of my one raggy hole eight shot group with my .22 lr at 100 this was also only 1/3" at most to the left of central poa - about seven years ago and still not repeated. the other two shots were placed in the sand because i thought i had gone off paper the group was that tiny- proves nowt though All said and done put enough rounds down range at any distance for long enough and you WILL record some great groups. My issues are if i have not already made it perfectly clear is placing the said group directly on the point of aim without sighter and also producing the said group "upon request" by this i mean walk up to the firing point without prior shooting and choosing the best and just plain do it witnessed first group. Can i do that no, have i achieved such groups yes - big difference in the two. Don't be negotory about "factory guns" i have seen a factory .222 pick up the prizes at a Diggle bench rest shoot and Accuraccy international and for that matter RPA and others could be and often are classed as factory. Indeed i have nine rifles in the safe and only two of them are true factory stock. there has been a chellenge set, i for one will not hesitate to congradulate anyone who can achieve it and again agree with Dekkers shooting 2" @ 500 yds is very,very much world class (provided it is done on request) not best of 50 five shot groups etc. I wish you all the luck in achieving it Edited May 7, 2011 by kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Well its nice just to sit back and watch the handbags fly and feel proud I posted the original thread. I have done my share of kent baiting among others,its sometimes more rewarding than going on a stalk especially an hour after sunset.However I'm sure Ackley is a cracking shot,with a bit more practice he will be at my level of accuracy . So I can sort of conclude that that a 200yd zero will be at least 1.65inchs high at 100yd and to get a 100grainer to achieve a 2inch drop over 200yds you would have to pack vit160 in tight with a stick. I will stick with my 100yd zero and after all, the shots at 200yds sit smack bang ontop of the post below the cross hairs on 12mag so I have an aim point for any long uns. Thanks for all the interest, now a 243 won't do it but will the hmr Oh i can take it pal so dont fret actually 41.6 grains of vhit 160 pushes a 100 grain pro hunter @ 2921 fps max from my 20" .243 win chambered barrel. it don't need packing into the federal case and i used a Fedral match primer. at 100 yds zero it is 3.2" low at 200. i don't need to pack it in with a stick, though i have never calibrated my scales readings as so long as they read the same each time i can't see the point. 42.5 grns as above will drive a 95 grn b/tip at 3016. If you want to use these loads it is at your own risk - they are very safe in my gun but might not be in yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 thats correct the new F class X ring is 2.5 inch by the way Dekers the world 600 yard record is only 1.071 How many times in how many ways do you need telling, you offered a 2" group at 500yards at Bisley on 15 May. I am happy to observe a master at work, and IF you do it I will shake your hand and make it very clear to all here you did it. I'm sure there are a LOT of people here waiting to see you or me eat Humble Pie. What more needs to be said. 15 MAY. Now then, what range was it booked on...Century?, and in whose name so I can check the lane when I arrive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 How many times in how many ways do you need telling, you offered a 2" group at 500yards at Bisley on 15 May. I am happy to observe a master at work, and IF you do it I will shake your hand and make it very clear to all here you did it. I'm sure there are a LOT of people here waiting to see you or me eat Humble Pie. What more needs to be said. 15 MAY. Now then, what range was it booked on...Century?, and in whose name so I can check the lane when I arrive! Oh I am a "master" now not "world class" any more I feel Ive been promoted by your good self,thank you as i have said if I can be there I will if I cant its no big deal theres plenty of other days and i think your pal Mr Lodgic is going to pop up to me so he can have a go,we have been in touch through PM you know in an adult and gentlemanly manner I dont need an hand shake from you mate as i know it would mean nothing and you havnt got to report anything on here as some people already know what my kit is capeable of Iam still waiting for you to forward me or post on here the articles that you say have been published in the sporting press,whay is this proving difficult to do I would love to read and learn from a true proffesional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Oh i can take it pal so dont fret actually 41.6 grains of vhit 160 pushes a 100 grain pro hunter @ 2921 fps max from my 20" .243 win chambered barrel. it don't need packing into the federal case and i used a Fedral match primer. at 100 yds zero it is 3.2" low at 200. i don't need to pack it in with a stick, though i have never calibrated my scales readings as so long as they read the same each time i can't see the point. 42.5 grns as above will drive a 95 grn b/tip at 3016. If you want to use these loads it is at your own risk - they are very safe in my gun but might not be in yours Vit 160 a great powder for a 243,been using it for years, hold on a min am I agreeing with you on something :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) Oh I am a "master" now not "world class" any more I feel Ive been promoted by your good self,thank you as i have said if I can be there I will if I cant its no big deal theres plenty of other days and i think your pal Mr Lodgic is going to pop up to me so he can have a go,we have been in touch through PM you know in an adult and gentlemanly manner I dont need an hand shake from you mate as i know it would mean nothing and you havnt got to report anything on here as some people already know what my kit is capeable of Iam still waiting for you to forward me or post on here the articles that you say have been published in the sporting press,whay is this proving difficult to do I would love to read and learn from a true proffesional 15 May! I can see the ground being laid for various excuses already! STOP talking and deliver the goods, there is NO point in any debate, 2" groups at 500 yards is what everyone is waiting for and I am magnanamous to offer my hand, you are obviously only after excuses and grief! 15 May, I have no interest in any further discussion until you put me in my place on the range, where are the range details I have asked for? Edited May 7, 2011 by Dekers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) 15 May! I can see the ground being laid for various excuses already! STOP talking and deliver the goods, there is NO point in any debate, 2" groups at 500 yards is what everyone is waiting for and I am magnanamous to offer my hand, you are obviously only after excuses and grief! 15 May, I have no interest in any further discussion until you put me in my place on the range, where are the range details I have asked for? and you accuse me of not reading too well let me spell it out for you £3000 worth of quality lab pups need to be looked after I will be on my own that weekend so I need to get someone to look after them you see my old mate it looks to me that Iam not the only only that cant understand the English language,as i have already said i dont need excuses,dont worry all will come togeather,not that I can say the same about your "published sporting articles" seems there a little slow coming Edited May 7, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) and you accuse me of not reading too well let me spell it out for you £3000 worth of quality lab pups need to be looked after I will be on my own that weekend so I need to get someone to look after them you see my old mate it looks to me that Iam not the only only that cant understand the English language,as i have already said i dont need excuses,dont worry all will come togeather I have seen your excuses already that's why I responded. You suggested 15 May and then came up with a convenient excuse...NAME YOUR DATE AND TIME! You are boring the whole forum and me! Still no details of the range booking! Let me know when you want to put me in my place and show me the 2" 500 yard group, until then I have no further interest in you. Edited May 7, 2011 by Dekers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) I have seen your excuses already that's why I responded. You suggested 15 May and then came up with a convenient excuse...NAME YOUR DATE AND TIME! You are boring the whole forum and me! Still no details of the range booking! Let me know when you want to put me in my place and show me the 2" 500 yard group, until then I have no further interest in you. you do make me laugh all along I have said I may or may not to make the 15th so no excsue has been made at all,i aslo said IF I cant make it anyone if free to come up to me on my land,so again no excuse there now is there,check post 24 either way be it at Bisley on the 15th or down the fields where i live I can still shoot a 2 inch 500 yard group,can you you cant even show your "published shooting press articles" one has to ask is there any you seem to have a lot of interest in me as you keep coming back with the same old rubbish by the way I dont need to put anyone in there place as i know what I can do and so do a lot of others,unlkie your "published articles" where did you say they were Oh you didnt did you Edited May 7, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 May i suggest the diggle fly shoot on 14th august. It is an annual competition based on 3x5 shot groups in official competition at 500 yards. All three groups are marked and measured for size and also score, points are awarded for both. Equipment use is totally open and everything from fox and stalking rifles to 1000 yard br and f-class gear will be used. Last year a stunning small group of 1 1/4?(id have to look it up precisely) inch was shot and claimed a new record by dave wylde of valkyrie rifles who took 2nd place. The shoot was won with a 2.3", a 2.8" and a 3.2", all shot central and scoring highly for both group and central position. That was done in comp, no spotters, marked targets or fancy gear, just a rem 700 rebarrelled in 260, shot pronr off a bipod and rear bag.Come shoot it this year because you will surely win, it is far closer than bisley, you can shoot any gun you like, prone off the grass and i know the winner knew a certain amount of luck helped on the day. mate that rifle would be far from just a remmy that been re barreled,it will be fitted with a match grade barrel and the action blueprinted and bedded into a nice stock, I was invited there last year by Dave as his guest but I was going on holiday,I may make it this year who knows,Iam more of a plinker with a few mates down the feild type of guy,cant be doing with all the cammo clad wanabee snipers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Border archer barrel, not blueprinted, bedded yes, into a laminate stock but im fairly sure significantly cheaper than one of your 2" guns. Clothing worn was a pair of blue jeans and an alledgedly lucky black t-shirt. Not a wanabee sniper, just someone down the club with his friends enjoying a day of shooting. You have been challenged by others to substantiate your claims, im just offering a suggestion of venue which happens to run an appropriate course of fire to allow you to silence your doubters. Diggle generally allow dogs to be brought along if they are well behaved but i will check with the club secretary for you. beleive me mate that remmy would have cost more than mine to have sorted,fair enough I did have mine built directly in the States when the dollar was $2 to the £1 I think a new Tikka T3 is more expensive nowerdays by the way the action would have been trued up or there is no point fitting a good tube remmy 700 how much are they £1000 ?? stock £400 min bedding £200 plus barrel supplied and fitted min £500 mounts and rings £100 you never mention a trigger,I would have thought a Jewel would have been fitted another £200 £2400 if my maths is correct many thanks for the offer to speak to your club but there is no need I have enough land to shoot to 1000 yards without going to a range,as i said Iam a field plinker not a target shooter,and believe me the doughters will be silenced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 you do make me laugh all along I have said I may or may not to make the 15th so no excsue has been made at all,i aslo said IF I cant make it anyone if free to come up to me on my land,so again no excuse there now is there,check post 24 either way be it at Bisley on the 15th or down the fields where i live I can still shoot a 2 inch 500 yard group,can you you cant even show your "published shooting press articles" one has to ask is there any you seem to have a lot of interest in me as you keep coming back with the same old rubbish by the way I dont need to put anyone in there place as i know what I can do and so do a lot of others,unlkie your "published articles" where did you say they were Oh you didnt did you Anything I may have had published is not in debate, you brought it up, I answered it in another thread, including showing you a picture that was published all over the world, You chose to slag it off and make erroneous suggestions which is why the thread was deleted. This has nothing to do with anything I may have had published and is simply your way of attempting to derail the thread. YOU are the one claiming 2" groups at 500 yards and YOU are the one who offered to fire a 2" 500 yard group at Bisley on 15 May, but now there are apparently problems. And you haven't even advised the range you booked or whose name it is under. (Puppy issues seem guaranteed now, where as earlier it was just a chance). I have not, and do not, make any claims about being able to repeat your achievements, I am simply an observer watching and learning from a Master. I have offered you my hand if you do it and to make sure everyone on this site knows you did it, all this was to be greeted with yet more excuses and disingenuous bull from you. Try and derail this as much as you like, when you come up with a date, turn up and do it then I will eat Humble Pie! Post a convenient date and time at Bisley, frankly I don't care when, whatever I am doing I will make sure I'm there. Until then I have no further interest in you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 (edited) Anything I may have had published is not in debate, you brought it up, I answered it in another thread, including showing you a picture that was published all over the world, You chose to slag it off and make erroneous suggestions which is why the thread was deleted. This has nothing to do with anything I may have had published and is simply your way of attempting to derail the thread. YOU are the one claiming 2" groups at 500 yards and YOU are the one who offered to fire a 2" 500 yard group at Bisley on 15 May, but now there are apparently problems. And you haven't even advised the range you booked or whose name it is under. (Puppy issues seem guaranteed now, where as earlier it was just a chance). I have not, and do not, make any claims about being able to repeat your achievements, I am simply an observer watching and learning from a Master. I have offered you my hand if you do it and to make sure everyone on this site knows you did it, all this was to be greeted with yet more excuses and disingenuous bull from you. Try and derail this as much as you like, when you come up with a date, turn up and do it then I will eat Humble Pie! Post a convenient date and time at Bisley, frankly I don't care when, whatever I am doing I will make sure I'm there. Until then I have no further interest in you! "no further interest" dont make me laugh it sounds like your going to burst a blood vessle,you keep coming back with more bull every time Iam working on care for my litter as I have "always" stated my inlaws are back from there trip away today as they are retired,i will be seeing tham aletr today to get an answers from them,so I will let YOU know staright away Iam not as you put it trying to "derail" anything as iam always up for a challenge, as to your photo,as you have said in another post "what does that proove" could have been anyone,Iam not saying it is as iam noy that shallow,unlike some I would like to read you published articles,what wrong with that nopw if you cant supply them what is one to think as i have said I dont need or want your hand,there are many who has seen what I can do so getting your approval means nothing,how ever I will "shut you up" when the day arrives maybe then you wont dought others in the future,judging others my your own standards so I will await a link in the mean time to your published works,or if anyone knows them please forward them on Edited May 8, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silpig5 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 i have read these posts with interest . as i have just puchased my first 243 i would be very interested in watching all postee's shots either at a range or in a designated field . i am a firm beleiver in "with my own 2 eyes " evidence , so please drop any handbags and can we make it a whole day of the men showing us boys how to start . this isnt a mickey take , but a request for a good clean shoot . cheers adi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 so I will await a link in the mean time to your published works,or if anyone knows them please forward them on here's the link KW http://www.baen.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarecrow243 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 in awnser to your question rws 100grn soft point .243 look on the box it has the m.r.d for zeroing ie manufactuers recomended distance for zeroing is 212 yards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 in awnser to your question rws 100grn soft point .243 look on the box it has the m.r.d for zeroing ie manufactuers recomended distance for zeroing is 212 yards Nice one, mate. The only trouble is everyone has forgotten the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted May 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 in awnser to your question rws 100grn soft point .243 look on the box it has the m.r.d for zeroing ie manufactuers recomended distance for zeroing is 212 yards Cracking ammo RWS,from memory its one of the faster production 100grs at over 3000fps at barrel.Rws states drop of 8.7cms at 200yds (3.5inchs) this seems to be about the norm for safe 100gr in 243. 212yd zero would give you the 2inch circle from 50 to 212yds which is ideal for heart/lung shots. zeroing at 500yds would make you about 51 inchs high at 100yds so Ackley and Dekers your little battle over who can group at 500yds doesnt really have alot of relevance to my original question. There is a saying that has such depth in its simplicity, 'It is what it is.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Fox Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Nice one, mate. The only trouble is everyone has forgotten the question! So true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I mainly browse this forum now when im stuck in traffic or cant sleep. There is a sticky on this forum re: ballistics which will help answer you questions. I just wish the regular derailler of posts would stop blowing his own trumpet on here unless he would prove his claims as requested by others. Moderators! far from blowing it matey I dont need to,just defending it,two very different things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted May 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I mainly browse this forum now when im stuck in traffic or cant sleep. There is a sticky on this forum re: ballistics which will help answer you questions. I just wish the regular derailler of posts would stop blowing his own trumpet on here unless he would prove his claims as requested by others. Moderators! Fister, theres more than one derailer on here,you have to wonder if some of the prominent names on here are'nt just kids with a keyboards that would just love to own a gun and stalk a deer but it would mean going out into the great outdoors. I always add what I know from experience and could be of some help to others, guaranteed someone will always pipe up and tell you your talking a load of trash.It has to be realised that there are always two sides to an arguement and a question doesnt always have one answer, a little flexability has to be the answere but does it really matter in the grand scheme of things, as long as some get usefull advice they can use.My question has been answered, 1 inch high with 100gr in 243 won't give you a 200yd zero, perfik.(and I have learnt a bit more on the way.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 here's the link KW http://www.baen.com/ Why are you being so offensive? Ackley and Dekers can crack on with their argument, apart from corrections doesn't really need any input. You've not said anything about the matter at hand, so I don't see why you're posting anything? Incidentally, regarding the articles, I have seen at least one of them in print, so they do exist. Hard copy though so I cannot post a link - I would if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Fister, theres more than one derailer on here,you have to wonder if some of the prominent names on here are'nt just kids with a keyboards that would just love to own a gun and stalk a deer but it would mean going out into the great outdoors. I always add what I know from experience and could be of some help to others, guaranteed someone will always pipe up and tell you your talking a load of trash.It has to be realised that there are always two sides to an arguement and a question doesnt always have one answer, a little flexability has to be the answere but does it really matter in the grand scheme of things, as long as some get usefull advice they can use.My question has been answered, 1 inch high with 100gr in 243 won't give you a 200yd zero, perfik.(and I have learnt a bit more on the way.) heres a drop chart using real time data from my 243AI with a 100 yard zero only .50 MOA (1/2 inch) needed at 200 yards 0 0.00 0.00 0.00 -1.9 0.0 0.0 3800 1507 0.0 0.0000 25 4.50 0.25 0.00 -1.2 -0.0 0.0 3703 1431 -0.1 0.0200 50 1.25 0.25 0.00 -0.6 -0.2 0.0 3608 1358 -0.3 0.0405 75 0.25 0.50 0.00 -0.2 -0.4 0.0 3515 1289 -0.7 0.0615 100 0.00 0.75 0.00 -0.0 -0.7 0.0 3424 1223 -1.3 0.0832 125 -0.00 1.00 0.00 0.0 -1.2 0.0 3335 1160 -2.0 0.1053 150 0.00 1.00 0.00 -0.1 -1.7 0.0 3248 1101 -3.0 0.1281 175 0.25 1.25 0.00 -0.5 -2.3 0.0 3163 1044 -4.2 0.1515 200 0.50 1.50 0.00 -1.1 -3.1 0.0 3080 990 -5.5 0.1755 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Why are you being so offensive? Ackley and Dekers can crack on with their argument, apart from corrections doesn't really need any input. You've not said anything about the matter at hand, so I don't see why you're posting anything? Incidentally, regarding the articles, I have seen at least one of them in print, so they do exist. Hard copy though so I cannot post a link - I would if I could. I think you will find hes taking the mick,I dont think anything was ment by it even though Dekers is getting a little hot under the collar :blink: could you direct me to where I can read these article as i genuinly interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Deker showed me them in hard copy a while back, so I am not sure where they can be found besides in his house tbh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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