Dunkield Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 From the current BASC magazine: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Interesting ! Ive seen it done a few times, always under 50yards and normally 35-45 yards when the chance has presented ! I just wish so much that the .22 was suitable for my land, i sold mine and miss it but so many riccocets i lost confidence in it, and shooting an air-field I couldnt take the chance of a inccident. Shame though, so the 17HMR is whats in my cabinet for rabbit and close range fox ! Looking for a cheap centre fire now so that i can use it for 10 shots most per year and not worry about the cost ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1979 Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Very interesting,a well placed shot at the right range will do the job problem is Home office guidance states .22rf unsuitable for Fox so FEO's who stick to the rule book wont allow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) Blimey Dunkield that can be rolled out about once a week when that argument comes us and indeed I might even use it shortly Nice to BASC sticking its head up on this one and about time logic prevailed Edited July 5, 2011 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiDriver Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 When I had my FEO visit, whilst discussing what I'd be able to use the 22lr for, he stated that it isn't a calibre granted for fox but that wasn't to say that if the situation arose that it was suitable/only thing to hand that I couldn't use it. Quite what the hell that meant I don't know As I wasn't after shooting Fox I didn't pursue clarification. I would imagine IF I was of a mind to shoot a fox that popped up real REAL close then it MIGHT be acceptable ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Please correct me if I am wrong but the way that I read it is that as long as whatever rifle you have on your certificate is conditioned for "Vermin" then there is no reason why you should not shoot fox with it. Is this the way that others are reading it? If so surely this is going to open a huge great big can of worms or has the time come when all firearms offices are going to have to start singing from the same hymn sheet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Herts have always said it, Foxes fit the dictionary definition rather well just some firearms units have decided that actually foxes aren't vermin for their purposes. Looks like if anyone got pulled for it which is highly remote that BASC would sort it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 My understanding, rightly or wrongly is the conditions on the certificate take preference, in Kent I have pest/vermin for 22lr, pest/vermin/fox for the 17hmr and .223. Therefore in my view my conditions contradict the legal standpoint of fox=vermin....That said i'm not willing to become a test case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I've just come off the phone from speaking to Ian Clark from the SACS about this! The way that Ian explained it to me was that foxes come under the general classification of "Vermin"! As such if you have the condition that your FAC that your rifle is for the use of "Shooting vermin and ground game" then legally there is nothing to stop you from shooting foxes with it. If the firearms office did decide to try to prosecute someone for shooting a fox with a rimfire rifle that was conditioned for "The shooting of vermin and ground game" the courts would almost certainly make an istant decision that foxes do in fact come under the classification of "Vermin" and that the case would go no further! If however you were to be found (And proven) to be causing unecessary suffering (Leaving runners etc, through poor shot placement or shooting at "unreasonable ranges") that could well be a different ball game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 so what BASC said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 so what BASC said Maybe I should have added that I also spoke to a BASC representative today and they said almost Identical to what Ian said to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I'm assuming they wouldn't have put it in print and sent it out to all their members if it wasn't true Not that I've seen it yet as it appears mine is late Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 It doesn't stop a Firearms Office hiding behind the dictionary definition of Vermin. For example, a Fox on an arable farm (without a game shoot) wouldn't really be Vermin therefore a Vermin condition on your licence wouldn't cover shooting one. Its all heresay though as law is built on precedents so it would need a test case to establish which view the law actually took when tested. As said by BASC it's much more likely that the charge of unnecessary suffering would be the only instance that the courts would probably ever get involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 so what BASC said Perhaps Ian gets the BASC mag too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Is there an echo? http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/150701-minimum-calibre-for-foxes/page__p__1283645#entry1283645 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) Perhaps Ian gets the BASC mag too might be quite educational I still can't believe how a fairly good statement from the people who should know still turns into a mass debate though PW wouldn't be the same without a good load of mass debaters Edited July 6, 2011 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Perhaps Ian gets the BASC mag too Just to clarify in case I didn't explain properly. I spoke to a representative of the BASC earlier this morning then spoke to Ian Clark and read the article to him. What Ian Clark said afterwards virtually echoed what the BASC representative said to me earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) Very lucky up here as we have FLOs who actually listen. When i put down for a .17hmr i requested that it be put down for foxes and vermin.I spoke to the lad,and asked if there were any problems with it being used for such as some areas were being ***** about it.He said not at all and it came back as conditioned for vermin which covers foxes. Many years ago when sound moderators were still a rarity,i put down on my renewal that i required one and the lad said there was not much chance of getting it.I produced a Gun Mart,which had done an article about the Home Office saying the new guidelines wouldnt refuse an issue of sound moderators on the grounds of health and safety.He took the magazine away and checked it up and the force hadnt even been informed of the guidelines,and i got the moderator no probs. Off topic a bit,but it shows how handy bits like this in a magazine helps to fight your corner. Edited July 6, 2011 by sako751sg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Its all a pretty pointless exercise bearing in mind SGC's allow you to shoot everything and make your own decisions yet jump through the hoops get a FAC and you need it all written on paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I hate to disagree with a statement put out by BASC but I would like to know where in law it clearly states that foxes are vermin. My understanding is that it is a grey area and will remain so until tested in court (any volunteers?). Until that has been sorted out beyond any doubt I shall continue to assume that for firearms purposes foxes are not "vermin" but exist in their own right and need to be specified in the certificate conditions unless the wording is sufficiently general to include them ("any other lawful quarry" for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) there is always one vermin is a pretty "general" term Edited July 6, 2011 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Master Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Apparently Wiltshire are awkward about it. Was recently speaking to a chap who I got some ferret kits from about applying for my FAC. During his interview he said he wished to have a .17hmr for 'vermin'. He said that the firearms licensing chap immediately said 'And you DON'T consider fox to be vermin? Do you?' Just goes to prove firearms licensing in this country is a complete farce and appears to be dictated by personal interpretation by FLO's who may not even know the law fully themselves. A bit of consistency wouldn't be too much to ask! FM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Oh dear, this will rumble on a bit, I was told by my FEO I needed fox on my license to shoot em as they are not covered by the vermin classification. Its stated in the Home Offices guidelines to police that fox are not classified as vermin. In the oxford dictionary people are also classed as vermin. Only one thing for it, shoot a fox and drag it down to Gloucester police station, let em know its not on your license and say ' what you gonna do about it then'. Any volenteers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 And just to confuse us even more, we have the "any lawful quarry" condition. What a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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