Dealing with SANDBAGGERS

[leaseone]

Dunkield I think it was a bit obvious

[Catamong]

I Sandbagged for 12 months just to prove it could easily be done I dropped a class (I never took any prize money as I had told the the shoot owner what I was doing) it was a bit hard to miss the last pair on 14 stands, so I managed to be a minimum of 28 down each shoot.Does not take much to get into a lower class I also told someone at the CPSA but nothing happened I was only asked at 1 shoot 'why did you miss that' by a ref.

 

Hmmm..........I've seen you shoot, you don't need to try too hard to miss 'em.

 

Cat.

[Chokemeister]

Some very enlightening replies to the thread folks, thanks.

 

I'm still watching a few individual shooter's scores.

 

Don't be under any illusion that 'bagging the B and C class prizes is trivial or just not financially worth it.

 

This year alone, there's been some heavy-duty cash in Sporting and DTL, plus extra prizes near a grand value, with at least 3 or 4 compys for the B and C class shots that will bag winners hundreds of pounds and extra prizes like new guns.

 

It's worth it, end of.

 

I do indeed see the older sand-baggers doing it as a 'hobby'. They only need to turn it on now and again, say every other year, just long enough to let the latest CPSA Issue Number score appear - and bobs yer uncle, all nice and reset if they undershoot for a year.

 

Easy to do when shooting is a pure social event, a pastime and not a competitive, driven passion like the up-and-coming, keen shots, who if genuine only get a short time in the mid and lower classes.

 

 

 

Okay. Enough whining. So what the hell do we do about it?

 

I think we should introduce a mathematical dampening system on all scores of any shooter who has:

 

(1) shot in higher classes at any time before.

 

or

 

(2) anyone who has shot scoring events for over two years in any event. I'll explain why.

 

 

 

If a rolling 6 month average is suddenly leaped by say, 20% (arbitrary figure, open to comments) on the day, then nope, they don't qualify for a prize (but keep the score).

 

Any sudden recovery from a health issue that lowered their class, meaning a sudden high score spike, would trigger the mathematical dampening on the score. Recovery from a health issue is a good thing, but not really a fair route to a lower-class prize with a sudden ridiculously high score for a class.

 

(I say 'ridiculously high' as some of the 'beginner' class scores I have seen have been at typical AA level and that's taking the ****)

How do we then protect the up-and-coming young or old new shot? They are capable of dramatic rises in scores when their natural ability is unleashed by practise or coaching, or even the 'joe and jane average' beginner who can see scores suddenly rise with sheer hard effort, tons of practise and love of the sport. I propose they are not included in the dampening system, until they have shot for 2 years. I think 2 year's of shooting is enough fair time to let talent show itself out of the beginner classes.

 

There's no problem with higher classes pulling **** scores now and again. We all do it, even the top-20 elite do. But rarely will you see someone score 2 classes higher on a big-cash competition day - unless something stinks.

 

Comments?

[Gordon R]

Mr Potter - I have just realise that I did not answer your question. Apologies. The shooters concerned were having a bad day at Skeet. Missed a few, which would have potentially dropped them out of AA. They just quit and told the ground owner to scrub their entries.

 

I was a bit miffed, as I was borderline AA at Skeet, but later had one shocking shoot at Sealands, in the pouring rain. I wore glasses and shot something like 33 out of 100. It ruined my Skeet average.

 

I too felt like quitting to preserve my average, but thought it would be cheating myself and other shooters.

 

25 years later - no trace of bitterness. :lol:

[Mr Potter]

Some very enlightening replies to the thread folks, thanks.

 

I'm still watching a few individual shooter's scores.

 

Don't be under any illusion that 'bagging the B and C class prizes is trivial or just not financially worth it.

 

This year alone, there's been some heavy-duty cash in Sporting and DTL, plus extra prizes near a grand value, with at least 3 or 4 compys for the B and C class shots that will bag winners hundreds of pounds and extra prizes like new guns.

 

It's worth it, end of.

 

I do indeed see the older sand-baggers doing it as a 'hobby'. They only need to turn it on now and again, say every other year, just long enough to let the latest CPSA Issue Number score appear - and bobs yer uncle, all nice and reset if they undershoot for a year.

 

Easy to do when shooting is a pure social event, a pastime and not a competitive, driven passion like the up-and-coming, keen shots, who if genuine only get a short time in the mid and lower classes.

 

 

 

Okay. Enough whining. So what the hell do we do about it?

 

I think we should introduce a mathematical dampening system on all scores of any shooter who has:

 

(1) shot in higher classes at any time before.

 

or

 

(2) anyone who has shot scoring events for over two years in any event. I'll explain why.

 

 

 

If a rolling 6 month average is suddenly leaped by say, 20% (arbitrary figure, open to comments) on the day, then nope, they don't qualify for a prize (but keep the score).

 

Any sudden recovery from a health issue that lowered their class, meaning a sudden high score spike, would trigger the mathematical dampening on the score. Recovery from a health issue is a good thing, but not really a fair route to a lower-class prize with a sudden ridiculously high score for a class.

 

(I say 'ridiculously high' as some of the 'beginner' class scores I have seen have been at typical AA level and that's taking the ****)

How do we then protect the up-and-coming young or old new shot? They are capable of dramatic rises in scores when their natural ability is unleashed by practise or coaching, or even the 'joe and jane average' beginner who can see scores suddenly rise with sheer hard effort, tons of practise and love of the sport. I propose they are not included in the dampening system, until they have shot for 2 years. I think 2 year's of shooting is enough fair time to let talent show itself out of the beginner classes.

 

There's no problem with higher classes pulling **** scores now and again. We all do it, even the top-20 elite do. But rarely will you see someone score 2 classes higher on a big-cash competition day - unless something stinks.

 

Comments?

:o :o :o My brain hurts

 

Mr Potter

[Catamong]

Yes, sounds great in theory, (if you can understand it.. :blink: ), but, as in every sport you can name, there will always be those who seek to manipulate the rules to their advantage, clay shooting is no different.

 

The CPSA have made various half hearted attempts at combating sandbagging over the years, they even introduced compulsory squadding on EVERY registered Sporting shoot a few years back, it was a typical CPSA decision, made by Tarp and Skeet shooters on the Board of management who were, (and still are), completely clueless about Sporting.

 

This venture was abandoned some months later following overwhelming opposition from both shooters and Ground owners.

 

If you play competitive golf, your handicap is adjusted after every competition, you can easily be cut from say a 22 handicap to say a 20 after one good round of golf, but you can't go back up that easily, you can only go up in increments of 0.1, i.e. from 20.0 to 20.1

 

Perhaps this is the way forward for shooting, nowadays most grounds have access to a laptop with a direct link to the CPSA website at the point of entry, scores are generally in-putted by grounds within 4 or 5 days, this would enable very rapid re-classification if somebody suddenly started out-performing everybody else in their class..??

 

Personally, I couldn't care less as I've been in AA or AAA for Sporting for probably 30 years.. , however I've got a "C" classification in DTL, despite NEVER having shot a registered DTL competition, how strange is that, methinks I ought to dust off the Trap Gun..??

 

Cat.

[paulos]

Some very enlightening replies to the thread folks, thanks.

 

I'm still watching a few individual shooter's scores.

 

Don't be under any illusion that 'bagging the B and C class prizes is trivial or just not financially worth it.

 

This year alone, there's been some heavy-duty cash in Sporting and DTL, plus extra prizes near a grand value, with at least 3 or 4 compys for the B and C class shots that will bag winners hundreds of pounds and extra prizes like new guns.

 

It's worth it, end of.

 

I do indeed see the older sand-baggers doing it as a 'hobby'. They only need to turn it on now and again, say every other year, just long enough to let the latest CPSA Issue Number score appear - and bobs yer uncle, all nice and reset if they undershoot for a year.

 

Easy to do when shooting is a pure social event, a pastime and not a competitive, driven passion like the up-and-coming, keen shots, who if genuine only get a short time in the mid and lower classes.

 

 

 

Okay. Enough whining. So what the hell do we do about it?

 

I think we should introduce a mathematical dampening system on all scores of any shooter who has:

 

(1) shot in higher classes at any time before.

 

or

 

(2) anyone who has shot scoring events for over two years in any event. I'll explain why.

 

 

 

If a rolling 6 month average is suddenly leaped by say, 20% (arbitrary figure, open to comments) on the day, then nope, they don't qualify for a prize (but keep the score).

 

Any sudden recovery from a health issue that lowered their class, meaning a sudden high score spike, would trigger the mathematical dampening on the score. Recovery from a health issue is a good thing, but not really a fair route to a lower-class prize with a sudden ridiculously high score for a class.

 

(I say 'ridiculously high' as some of the 'beginner' class scores I have seen have been at typical AA level and that's taking the ****)

How do we then protect the up-and-coming young or old new shot? They are capable of dramatic rises in scores when their natural ability is unleashed by practise or coaching, or even the 'joe and jane average' beginner who can see scores suddenly rise with sheer hard effort, tons of practise and love of the sport. I propose they are not included in the dampening system, until they have shot for 2 years. I think 2 year's of shooting is enough fair time to let talent show itself out of the beginner classes.

 

There's no problem with higher classes pulling **** scores now and again. We all do it, even the top-20 elite do. But rarely will you see someone score 2 classes higher on a big-cash competition day - unless something stinks.

 

Comments?

Have you any named examples of such instances? I've seen people shoot well above their average, but with no cheating or sandbagging involved - they've just had a good day. I suspect you're just bitter about being beaten and need to chill out a little.

[Chard]

Have you any named examples of such instances? I've seen people shoot well above their average, but with no cheating or sandbagging involved - they've just had a good day. I suspect you're just bitter about being beaten and need to chill out a little.

 

[Emmsy]

however I've got a "C" classification in DTL, despite NEVER having shot a registered DTL competition, how strange is that, methinks I ought to dust off the Trap Gun..??

 

Cat.

 

sounds like a plan im C for DTL and B for skeet, hehe

[Mr Potter]

I've got a "C" classification in DTL, despite NEVER having shot a registered DTL competition, how strange is that, methinks I ought to dust off the Trap Gun..??

 

Cat.

 

Don't do it Mate don't do it. You've got your self respect to think about. I'm not talking about an accusation of sandbagging but the absolute ignominy of being seen with cardboard blinkers on, a towel dangling from your belt, toe flap strapped to your foot. Never mind the fixed, un-blinking stare and that curious look of both disdain & disapproval that tarp shooters seem to have permanently on their face. No No No not the route for the Cat ( a Sporting Man through and through)

 

Get a taste for it and the next thing is that you'll start thinking that the CPSA isn't doing a bad job after all and that those loud, noisy badly dressed Sporting shooters really are a disgrace and wish they'd just go away.

 

No Cat, it's just not you.

 

Mr Potter

 

PS I'm not trying to start a Clay*porting style slanging match, my tongue is firmly in my cheek

[EdSolomons]

Chokemeister, what hapens when a shoot is put on that is softer than average- the top 10 scores in each class just get binned?

Also all genuine club shooters can have a red letter day at any time in their career- they shouldn't be penalised for it. Ditto for the older shooter who decides to have serious coaching later in his career.

I can't see your idea working on a big scale...

[Catamong]

Don't do it Mate don't do it. You've got your self respect to think about. I'm not talking about an accusation of sandbagging but the absolute ignominy of being seen with cardboard blinkers on, a towel dangling from your belt, toe flap strapped to your foot. Never mind the fixed, un-blinking stare and that curious look of both disdain & disapproval that tarp shooters seem to have permanently on their face. No No No not the route for the Cat ( a Sporting Man through and through)

 

Get a taste for it and the next thing is that you'll start thinking that the CPSA isn't doing a bad job after all and that those loud, noisy badly dressed Sporting shooters really are a disgrace and wish they'd just go away.

 

No Cat, it's just not you.

 

Mr Potter

 

PS I'm not trying to start a Clay*porting style slanging match, my tongue is firmly in my cheek

 

You're dead right Mr P, I just can't get excited by the prospect of an 84/202, just doesn't sound right to me, I'll stick to my Sporting..!! :lol:

 

Cat.

[Chokemeister]

Have you any named examples of such instances? I've seen people shoot well above their average, but with no cheating or sandbagging involved - they've just had a good day. I suspect you're just bitter about being beaten and need to chill out a little.

 

 

LoL, no that's not the case though I suspect the real sandbaggers out there would love to see anyone shining a spotlight on them beaten up with that nasty comeback.

 

Shooting 20+ % above a long running (and tightly engineered) average, just on the day when well over a grand in cash and prizes is up for grabs in the beginner classes, is not having a "good day", it's bloody thieving, period.

 

I'm getting very close to naming names, and I don't wish to do that, but I will say that particular shootter has kept his scores consistently 2 whole classes under how he shot that day. Like you say, he must have just had a good day when a big wad was waved in front of his pus... ********!

[Emmsy]

grade the payout on the class level, ie more in AA than A then B etc. would help encourage people to move up the classes.

the payout at the british is utter tosh, 2 places in AAA! whats the friggin point in putting the effort in and getting in that class?? i was certainly better off while being in A class thats for sure.

[Vince Green]

Sandbagging ( literally putting a shot off the target into the sandbag) used to be very common with pistol shooting back in the days when we did it but with a twist that I would like to explain.

 

When you shot a pistol league you would shoot eight or ten rounds of cards usually three cards to a round. Each round to be shot on different dates and as the weeks went by you would start to get the scores back and see who was winning.

 

If about half way through it became obvious you were not winning you would stop shooting your sunday best ammunition and start using up your reject reloads on the rest of the cards. Since we all reloaded and experimented a lot there would always be gash ammo that needed using up. There was no other real way of getting rid of the stuff. You still went through the rounds shooting to win and keeping your skills up but you knew the scores would suffer.

 

In the shotgun context, shooting with cheaper or inferior ammo would have the same effect. You do not want to deliberately miss because you are teaching yourself bad habits and destroying your hard learned co-ordination.

 

But how do you penalise somebody for not using the best ammo available? If he is still aiming to break the clay but just not suceeding so often because his ammo is letting him down is that cheating? It would be very hard to prove.

 

If you think this person is at it the first thing to look at is the cartridges he is using on his good and bad days.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Vince Green

[EdSolomons]

I'm afraid I don't buy into that (for clays) the cheapest stuff around now is more than enough to put in hg scores let alone class wins. I can see how it would work for pistols/rifles perhaps though.

 

Ed

[Catamong]

Yeah, with the greatest respect to Vince, that's total nonsense.

 

The term "Sandbagging" doesn't originate from pistol shooting, but from Horse Racing, where bags of sand were added to slow them down.

 

Reloads are not allowed in competitive clay shooting, as Ed says, you wouldn't glean anything from checking a guys ammo, as each shell nowadays is pretty much the same when it comes to performance.

 

Cat.

[Gordon R]

Chokemeister - we have heard the veiled threats to expose the "cheats". It's put up or shut up time. Publish the names, giving the people the right to sue you. You should have no trouble proving your point - or perhaps it isn't that simple.

 

I know people who I firmly believe have cheated. If I named them and they sued - the onus would be on me to prove I was telling the truth. So long after the event - or without a shed load of witnesses - I would be in a spot of bother.

 

So would you. You cannot prove someone deliberately missed. You might suspect, but in a Court of Law, your suspicions would be made to look foolish.

[TopDown]

Well ****** me. I didn't know we had morphed into the States. Does everyone get sued now if they don't like the cut of someone elses jib?

 

Let's not get too carried away. Are we really expecting to see the inside of a court based on some clay pigeon shooting and £1000?

 

Spill it Chokemeister. 5 pages of this is enough for anyone.

[Nial]

Chokemeister - we have heard the veiled threats to expose the "cheats". It's put up or shut up time. Publish the names, giving the people the right to sue you. You should have no trouble proving your point - or perhaps it isn't that simple.

 

I know people who I firmly believe have cheated. If I named them and they sued - the onus would be on me to prove I was telling the truth. So long after the event - or without a shed load of witnesses - I would be in a spot of bother.

 

So would you. You cannot prove someone deliberately missed. You might suspect, but in a Court of Law, your suspicions would be made to look foolish.

 

 

So you let cheats get away with something it's impossible to prove but everyone knows what's happening?

 

Fair enough if you want this place to end up like the States.

 

 

Nial.

[Gordon R]

Nial - how many people have you fronted up at a clay shoot and said they were cheating?

 

I have actually done it, so don't get patronising with me. :good:

 

The point about the USA went above my head - and I suspect the rest of the intelligent world.

[Chokemeister]

On review, of course I'd be sued.

 

When decades-long A Classers, 'downsize their competition', yet bag beginner class wins with A-class scores, even if only on the big money days, it's just tough cooky.

 

I need to learn to eat it and shut up.

 

It's all totally fair and real beginners all have an 'equal' chance in such events, regardless of how long fellow shooters shot at the top-tier and maintain a beginner's average at all other times.

 

yes, so I won't mention it again. I'll be moving up a class next season, so it's someone else's all-in-the-mind problem.

 

Thank you Gordon.

[Ratman2]

All I can say on this matter is, if anyone wins anything by cheating, be it shooting or a pub quiz, they are really sad loosers, billy no mates. How can any cheat hold his or her head high knowing they have deprived the real winner of their accolade just for financial gain.

Sorry but I just can't stand cheats. Rant over.

[Gordon R]

thought well i might as well miss a few shoot below 75 and get registered in C class

 

The most worrying part is that you seemed to have considered cheating or perhaps your post was badly worded.