wymberley Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 When I shoot a fox in the dark in particular, I want it to fall down there and then and not get "lost" in a nearby hedge or wood. The 223, 55 V Max and 3250 did this except for once. The 22 Hornet, 40 Nosler BT and 2890 did not, all bar one ran before dropping albeit stone dead. No one can or will give you a required energy figure, assuming a suitable bullet, to achieve this for an engine room shot: There being too many variables. The only problem here, of course, that it means that it is impossible to contradict any one opinion. In round figures, you will kill a fox at 50yds with a 22 LR sub with, say, 70ft/lbs. At 50 yards you have accurate shot placement. Will you kill a fox with a 223 when the energy level has dropped to that same level? No. Downrange, I figure there's a requirement for some poke to offset any change from a perfect to a good shot. Looking at the 223 which had far to much to spare at the ranges in question and the Hornet that didn't quite hack it, for me, I look at 400ft/lbs available downrange to achieve that objective. I do emphasize that that is for me, others will have their own idea and we are talking drop to shot. On those grounds alone, I'd say 150yds was about the limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Now I like any gun and anyone shooting get's my approaval. I love the idea of these little 17's flourishing but for me one thing is clear. Born from experience these fast super light bullets do struggle in the field, a bit of rain, drizzle even, a blade of grass or just a breeze and all the hype goes out the window. It's just the same for the really fast 22 and 6mm cartridges only the 17 will be worse. I remember countless times my freinds 17rem turning on a blade of grass just in front of a distant rabbit and then there's the fox's we missed in the rain. I do however remember the bolting fox at night at 300 yards!Oh and the long magpie! Maybe it's just me getting older but I do seem to prefere getting closer now, which means pretty much anything will do, whether its a 17 or 45/70. Just my 2p U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 I just did a rough calculation with the info Hornady are giving and the specs of the Hornady 20gr V-Max. It's as good on a Fox at 200 yards as a .22WMR is at 50. I admit it's getting to the limits of the round but it is easily possible. Just out of interest I pushed the info out to well past where you'd shoot and it still has the energy of a .22lr sub at the muzzle right out at 500 yards! Range Velocity Impact Drop Energy 0 3650 -1 0 592 50 3334 -0.11 0.43 494 100 3056 0 1.65 415 150 2795 -0.83 3.8 347 200 2548 -2.77 7.07 288 250 2316 -6.06 11.68 238 300 2097 -10.97 17.92 195 350 1889 -17.89 26.16 158 400 1697 -27.25 36.84 128 450 1520 -39.64 50.56 103 500 1363 -55.81 68.05 83 EDIT... Zero it 1/2" high at 100 and you're hitting within 1/2" of your aim point from 20 right out to 170 yards Nice comparison, however a 22mag at 50yds on a fox will go through and through(most probably!) That little 17 if the fox turns slight may only get a shallow wound. What if it bursts on a shoulder? Don't get me wrong, I would not lose anysleep over it. I just don't rate comparing ft/lb figures as a way to predict a test of actual field performance. U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 The WMR offers a range of ammo and so to does the .22 Hornet itself (between about 300-700ft lb with a decent choice of heads to). I was wondering about the specific need for this round, not a 17 specifically, there are other calibres that can be loaded/adapted anyway, and I don't necessarily see the .17 Hornet sitting nicely between a HMR and a Fireball. Just what is there in between it sits nicely for? Once again let me stress, I'm not having a go, yes, why not, get one if you want and play to your hearts content, fine. I look at problems and then look at a calibre I need to solve that problem, it seems many just want to play with something new with little or no idea what they want it for! ATB, but what is so mind boggling exciting about a .17 Hornet that you cannot get pretty damn close to with something else? What next a .2225, all the benefits of a 222 and a .223 combined? How about a 222rem mag or 225 win mag U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 So if this 17 Hornet hits the UK market...I wonder how many HMR's will be for sale.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Debate/discussion heading towards an answer! I'm still wondering what I would use it for just the same? PS The only problem is it looks like I would have to buy an Anorak, a notebook and start spending too much time in the shed! surely thats why hornady have brought the 17 hornet into factory production, the 17AH / 17hornet-K is a proven wildcat round, and soon we won't need to spend hours sat in the shed to enjoy it charms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 So if this 17 Hornet hits the UK market...I wonder how many HMR's will be for sale.. A few, if the owners reload and already have the kit. It sounds like a great rabbit round, HMR +100yds, but some people ( me included ) just want to pick up the rifle and a box of factory ammo and blat rabbits at 150yds. If I wanted to extend my range and add fox I'd buy a .204, it works, tried and tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Kent had problems with HMR killing crows. Yes i did, it stems from the rapidly changing terminals on the little pill. The heavy .17 c/fire bullets might change this and add some greater predicability in changing winds. BUT i seriously don't get the whole ricochet thing, a shot is either safe or unsafe there is no shot i would take with a .17 hornet that i wouldn't with the .22 version and appropriate bullets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 BUT i seriously don't get the whole ricochet thing, a shot is either safe or unsafe there is no shot i would take with a .17 hornet that i wouldn't with the .22 version and appropriate bullets. Simple, if it ricochets less it's better in my mind. Yes you should always take a safe shot but we've all had a bullet zing off into the distance and whether in a safe direction or not I prefer it not to happen. I'm not sure the ricochet thing is a great example to be honest - the .17 Hornet (the Ackley) with 25gr V-Max does send them up now and again too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Simple, if it ricochets less it's better in my mind. Yes you should always take a safe shot but we've all had a bullet zing off into the distance and whether in a safe direction or not I prefer it not to happen. I'm not sure the ricochet thing is a great example to be honest - the .17 Hornet (the Ackley) with 25gr V-Max does send them up now and again too. Lightweight frangible bullets in a .243 are pretty darn good also so were do you stop? I have actually found my .22 Hornet better than the HMR thus far in this regards. The hmr zinged all over if it encountered sedge grass (of which we have lots) were the 45 grn .22 (hornet specific) pill just ploughs through into the dirt, note "hornet specific" = thinner jackets / greater expantion, fragmentation at lower velocity, that said its still faster than a HMR . I must admit i was seduced by the hype and i still hear people spouting the rubbish that i was once taken in by on the .17 cal but practical experiance is a cruel master if you listen to what it shows you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Simple, if it ricochets less it's better in my mind. Yes you should always take a safe shot but we've all had a bullet zing off into the distance and whether in a safe direction or not I prefer it not to happen. I'm not sure the ricochet thing is a great example to be honest - the .17 Hornet (the Ackley) with 25gr V-Max does send them up now and again too. Lightweight frangible bullets in a .243 are pretty darn good also so were do you stop? I have actually found my .22 Hornet better than the HMR thus far in this regards. The hmr zinged all over if it encountered sedge grass (of which we have lots) were the 45 grn .22 (hornet specific) pill just ploughs through into the dirt, note "hornet specific" = thinner jackets / greater expantion, fragmentation at lower velocity, that said its still faster than a HMR . I must admit i was seduced by the hype and i still hear people spouting the rubbish that i was once taken in by on the .17 cal but practical experiance is a cruel master if you listen to what it shows you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I heard you the first time! I've decided to stick with the .22 anyway. I have dies and consumables for it already and I get the feeling that my love of short barrels will really mess with the energy of the .17. You know what they say - the more a case is necked down the more it needs barrel length to make use of the powder. The standard .22H is very good with short barrels. I still need the rebarrel though. My bore is looking sad with all the rounds it's seen! I'm considering a K Hornet but it only gives an extra 100fps according to Hodgdon. Is it ever worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 surely thats why hornady have brought the 17 hornet into factory production, the 17AH / 17hornet-K is a proven wildcat round, and soon we won't need to spend hours sat in the shed to enjoy it charms I can't help thinking Factory will be silly prices with probably a very limited choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I can't help thinking Factory will be silly prices with probably a very limited choice! Can't help feeling that the remark about price for us in the UK is probably on the money. Regarding choice, what alternatives would change your glass currently half empty to half full? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I heard you the first time! I've decided to stick with the .22 anyway. I have dies and consumables for it already and I get the feeling that my love of short barrels will really mess with the energy of the .17. You know what they say - the more a case is necked down the more it needs barrel length to make use of the powder. The standard .22H is very good with short barrels. I still need the rebarrel though. My bore is looking sad with all the rounds it's seen! I'm considering a K Hornet but it only gives an extra 100fps according to Hodgdon. Is it ever worth it? No its not, the K hornet was developed in a time before chronographs were in common use. The only reason to K a hornet is as a quick fix to make a potential / possible improvement in accuraccy to a poorly chambered gun as its cheaper than a new barrel or new gun. Your honet wont be shot out have you considered getting it lapped with a lead slug if the bore has gotten roughed up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 No its not, the K hornet was developed in a time before chronographs were in common use. The only reason to K a hornet is as a quick fix to make a potential / possible improvement in accuraccy to a poorly chambered gun as its cheaper than a new barrel or new gun. Your honet wont be shot out have you considered getting it lapped with a lead slug if the bore has gotten roughed up? I thought the K was supposed to give better case life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I bought a 17AH from NJC110381 maybe 18 months ago so he does know exactly what he is talking about here. This was a new CZ527 laminated that has had its barrel changed and a couple of other tweeks. I find it an ideal rifle to carry on a trap round up to when the cereals are cut, I have taken foxes with it to 150 yards with no issues. A center of mass hit with a 20gr Vmax on a crow or mapie is pretty devastating usually. Once the wheat is down then opportunities against foxes at far longer ranges may be offered. If you lot are thinking of buying one DONT have a massive heavyweight thing with a barrel the size of a tanks. Its a light caliber, 150 yards is as far as I would want to go humanely, its quiet and costs noting much to reload, recoil is non existent. I have had an odd shot with HMR yes and seem them in skilled hands doing a good job on rabbits to about 130 yards but 17AH as as much energy at 150? yards as HMR does at the muzzel. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I thought the K was supposed to give better case life. debateable as fireforming is lot more work on the brass, with lower pressure powders like lil gun good cases last a long while with std chambered these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I thought the K was supposed to give better case life. Yes as does most ackley's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 I found that it was vital to anneal the necks in this caliber to stop them splitting. Dont anneal and they split 1 in 2 shots. Anneal and I have not lost one in several hundred shots, its quite an easy process to rig up with a blow lamp and a cordless drill. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I've never had a problem with hornet cases, always been fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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