100milesaway Posted July 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Dennis, as one of the lady shooters, I am quite happy to compete in the ladies class with ALL the other ladies even if I am 40 years older than some of them.I don't want a special class or score adjustment just 'cause i'm a lady and a vet.Hells bells what else can you find to whine about? from Auntie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky T Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 This is the logics, nicky i could win 3 shoots in the veterans and have one low score of say 10 below the high gun vet, giving me 10 points, yet i may still miss out on a team place, because i wasn't shooting against all the other vets but against the high gun, out of 6 shoots would be ranked as the best shot but not make the team, where is the logics in that...Its auctually called ageisum, it discriminates me on the bases of age, i am expected to compete with the top seniors.....why did we ever set up catagories in the first place but to put every shooter based on age, gender or youth....to make every group compete with each other in that group, but it gets worse nick, you would have to say i am the top vet around at the momment, but i don't appear on the radar, i cannot attract sponsors because i don't appear on the averages, in fitasc i do but not english sporting, we are discriminated against, The CPSA has to change the whole system and bring in Rankings, we all have to be treated as equals in this sport, is perhaps there is no mileage in Veterans, they are at the end of the game, why invest in the old ****. You tell me . Fitasc take the other view, look at the entry for the European Fitasc in Portugal, veterans is important to fitasc, the CPSA has to change tack and embrace this important group in this sport. Dennis Thanks for the explanation of your point of view Dennis, there are however some flaws in the above logic (IMHO of course)... I can't comment if you're the top veteran Sporting shot in the country at the moment, as i honestly don't know, but i think that you're off the mark if you expect the CPSA to change the while system and bring in rankings in the anticipation of a sponsorship deal or two. To my mind everyone already is treated as equal as we all shoot against each other for High Gun at EVERY shoot that i've ever been to. This gives everyone an equal chance of hitting the jackpot and taking away not only the highest honour from the shoot, but also the chance to prove that they are teh best in their respective class - competing directly against their peers. If the categories were done away with then I'm sure that in a couple of years the the zimmer frames would be rattling as their owners lamented about the good old days of category wins at the British Open way back in 2012 etc Regarding team places the most consistently well performing shooters will always make the team. 99.99% of the time these will also be the "best" shooters based on their scores in the selection shoots. Ultimately it is always the best x amount of scores that are taken into account from y number of selection shoots. To the best of my knowledge it has never been an equal number of required scores and selection shoots. The option is there to eliminate a bad day in the office with a better score if required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzurri Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Its a busy calender over the next few weeks, Meon Springs next week, Dutch grand prix the week after, Digweeds 2 day selection shoot after that and a host of others, not sure if i can make the Worlds, its a hard life....and i have a fully fitted out gymn, it looks great, sauna, steam room and indoor pool,,, the grandchildren love them...oh to be as skinny as you, i was 12 stone at one time, i will have to try to get it off, the trouble is this year has been difficult getting fit with do much flu around... Dennis By the sound of that you're hardly in need of any sponsorship Dennis :blush: Congrats on making the vets team though,well done :good: Azzurri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilR Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Dennis for once I agree with you. GB team selection shoots, certainly have separate ranking lists for each male age related category and ladies. For ranking points and team selection they are shooting against their peers, not a 70 year old against a 17 year old. Prize money is distributed in the CPSA lettered classes, irrelevant of categories with the exception of FITASC Grand Prix where it is by category. A High Gun prize, should there be one, is won by the highest score of the event by the shooter from whatever category. I introduced the above system in the late 1990's to BICTSF selection shoots and it has worked satisfactorily since then. The only change is to the ISSF events where minus points were introduced for the finalists to put more pressure on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Auntie, we need a major overhaul in the way the CPSA admin the sporting disciplines, coming back into the discipline has been refreshing, nothing has changed in the 32 years since i last made the England Sporting team, its as haphazard and poorly managed a discipline as its always been, is it no wonder the membership has not grown as it has in other countries...The Selection shoots should have better standards set, they are supposed to be the premiour league of sporting, but in most cases they are still just a fund raiser for the regions. They should be the hub of the Rankings, if you want to be ranked then you have to enter them. That is what happens in Fitasc....You should never have to wonder what the targets are going to be like when you travel 300 miles....Sporting is the barometer of membership to the cpsa, everyone joins through sporting. I don't need sponsorship Azzurri, and belive it or not some have said they would be prepared to pay me not to use there product, and i'm not joking. The last time i shot for England though It was in Scotland in Fitasc and AJ was the other vet. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 and belive it or not some have said they would be prepared to pay me not to use there product, and i'm not joking. Dennis, Knowing what sort of a character you really are, that comment doesn't surprise me.. It wasn't Dyson Vacuum Cleaners by any chance...?? Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Don't really see what the fuss is about. Those inncategories aren't competing with the seniors for points; the highest score is used to gauge how well you have done. It makes no difference if you win vets on 85 and runner up is 80- either way there is a 5 point gap. It might make you feel a bit better if you can take 0 points from a few by winning category but the outcome will be the same. And on the subject of sponsorship- if you think gettin in the top 20 at the end of the year means people throwing money and free shells at you then you wil be very upset when you realise no one cares and you get sod all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 There was i thinking you were really smart ed, you certainly fooled me, i bet you have got a GCE .....As Phil stated the International board changed because they realised it was just unfair. I know you cannot see that Ed, but its the same as you think the European fitasc was a poor shoot. Just like any major events many of the participants come from areas of little or no competitive shooting, one day i'm sure we will have arrived in this sport where the courses are all like we shot last week-end, fantastic shoot, i loved it, but it was way too hard for the majority in this sport, if grounds classified there shoots as semi professionals only tag, how many shooters would turn up. I went around with some average shooters who generally shoot low 70's here they shot below 50%, i tried to convince them that the 260 mile round trip was worth it, they won't be going back again, the same as my other mates who used to go won't either. Was that good for the ground, a few years ago this ground would have been banged out, not any longer, Mark has to get the balance right.... You just have to stop punishing your punters, The course looked as if Mark had put in a lot of hard work, it was well thought out and thrilling in parts, i phoned him and thanked him for the work he had put in. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted July 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 It was an England Team selection shoot, as such it's important to take shooters out of their comfort zone, I certainly didn't hear any complaints and thought Mark got it spot on. Well shot on making the team by the way also to Ed and a new cap to Linda Grayson another Yorkshire lass.Linda didn't shoot this particular shoot as good as she normally does but under the sporting rules this will be one she can drop. this is the fairest system and has worked very well for the 20 years that i have shot, it gives a fair crack to all and gives us all something to aim for.It encourages consistancy... ie.. it's possible to make the team with 4x 2nd places sometimes being better than 2x1st and 2x3rd slots.It's still consitancy and as is normal it quite often comes down to just 1 clay being the deciding factor. Good luck to all on the team, and thanks must go to all the grounds that hosted the shoots.from Auntie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Thanks Lyn! And Dennis I don't know where you got the clever bit from- you wil change your mind on the night of the home International. Maybe I'm being thick but if you use either method of points, the same team will be selected so no worries. On the difficulty thing, I think it is just going to be a matter of opinion. 2x94s won, I'm willing to bet A class won high 80s, B probably high 70s and C mid 70s. If that's the case it sounds good to me. People need to remember this is sportin not skeet. Grimsthorpe always put a similar shoot on and are never short of numbers, and I personally didn't here anything but praise for the shoot. I guess it depends who you speak to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Ps. Dennis; 53!? Where did the 86 come from dis you go round twice!? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 If you go to the shooting website its been corrected, but the CPSA are always slow to act. As someone coming back to the discipline i can perhaps express an unbiased view....I never saw one stand at Grimsthorpe that a novice shooter could do well, you had to focus on everything, just a little bit of tweaking would have been enough for lesser mortals to get a better score, never look to the top scores Ed look at the bottom and see who is there, my memories of English sporting of this ground were that it was never this hard, it does nothing for the sport to humilate shooters, i saw many experienced shooter of my age who had been in the game a long time shoot 1 or 2 on a stand, look at stand 6 , i think with the long rising target out in the field , it was an easy stand to blank, stunning stand ,i dropped 1 but i also saw it blanked, have the long one but make the report target easier, give something back to the shooter, he did that on a few other stands, but not on this one......The entry was 180, in my opinion not enough shooters for such a presitge event. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Interesting I'm constantly hearing AAA/AA shooters telling me how easy targets are today, compared to the good old days I think targets should be tough on this type of selection shoot, purely because it sorts the men out from the boys. Not much good having an England team that can't hit this type of target consistently. If novices and A/B/C class shooters can't deal with a duff score now and again, they should stay away from selection shoots. Getting experience of this sort of stuff is the only way they'll learn to shoot properly, no good getting big scores at your local club week in, week out. I shot appallingly, partly because it was tough, partly because I wasn't focused, but I'll survive (and I handed my card in :o :o ) I can hit these sort of targets, but I need to have my head on, and that doesn't happen often enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Interesting I'm constantly hearing AAA/AA shooters telling me how easy targets are today, compared to the good old days I think targets should be tough on this type of selection shoot, purely because it sorts the men out from the boys. Not much good having an England team that can't hit this type of target consistently. If novices and A/B/C class shooters can't deal with a duff score now and again, they should stay away from selection shoots. Getting experience of this sort of stuff is the only way they'll learn to shoot properly, no good getting big scores at your local club week in, week out. I shot appallingly, partly because it was tough, partly because I wasn't focused, but I'll survive (and I handed my card in :o :o ) I can hit these sort of targets, but I need to have my head on, and that doesn't happen often enough Good reply. People have got too used to shooting the softer stuff at their local club and faced with something that needs a bit of though miss a few, then lose their head. There wasn't a clay that couldn't be consistently killed with a 3/8, but there were lots of places to drop 1 or 2 birds. I have looked at the scores and there are relatively few below 60%. chances are these were shooting a ground for the first time or were nervous for whatever reason- they would have shot bad if te birds were easier- just having "one of those days". If I turned up to a local straw baler I wouldn't bitch because the birds were too soft- it's what you would expect. Equally a club shooter shouldn't turn up to an England selection expecting an ego boosting score. They are there to be testing, but not hard. 180 entries on a shoot which was competing with 5 other shoots within a steady drive is pretty reasonable I would say. Do you really want to see sporting throwing 90% of it's targets inside 30 yards and all 1/4ing away like portugal Den? Sporting is about a mix, 10 yards to 70 yards, short, long fast slow loopers etc etc. It is in danger of turning into a mix of skeet and modern FITaSC. Well done Mark for putting on a great shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 I have looked at the scores and there are relatively few below 60%. I'm a rare breed....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) I thought the shoot was exactly what I would hope an England selection shoot to be. I am not a ‘top shot’ and there was not one target I thought was silly, my misses were down to clever deceiving angles not stupid targets. Chard and I travelled a 280 mile round trip to this shoot because we thought it would be a bit tasty, if it was softened I might of scored 84 rather than 74 but I would not be rushing back. I can shoot a soft shoot locally if that’s what I want, but I really enjoyed the shoot even though my score was below my average and I will be going back, soften it and I will not bother. It was in my opinion one of the best shoots I have shot for a very long time, if I want to consistently shoot my average I will take up another shooting discipline with standard preset targets country wide. Edited July 5, 2012 by timps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 if it was softened I might of scored 84 rather than 74 *might have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 *might have *58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 *58 Sshhhhh - pool shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Sshhhhh - pool shoot Only steers and queers shoot well on the pool shoot, private Chard, and you don't look much like a steer to me, so that kinda narrows it down. Do you suck *****? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Maybe you should see a good coach.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) Im not a "registered" shooter I shoot at our local club most weeks. I love going to the charity shoot because it gives me a chance to shoot "proper" grounds Now as a "novice" on proper grounds and if I turned up for an England selection shoot I wouldnt expect to hit over 40-50% winners of these shoots should be the best of the best, They will be representing their country, if everyone was to hit 80-90% nobody would learn anything, People shooting then saying the targets were too hard need to practice more. Im happy shooting what I do because I do it as a fun hobby, Fair play to those who want to excel but dont knock hard targets at a national selection event. :yp: Edited July 5, 2012 by shaun4860 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Maybe you should see a good coach.... I'll get my bus pass soon, then I'll take the coach.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Maybe you should see a good coach.... He did but they have just stopped it on the M6 toll thinking his stench was a chemical attack...... I think his gun doesn’t fit, his ammo was a too slow and his chokes are the wrong colour......... I'll get my bus pass soon, then I'll take the coach.......... You can then enter the vets at selection shoots......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 You can then enter the vets at selection shoots......... That won't do me any good if Dennis is shooting ******* 86...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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