ruger .17 hornet

[kent]

I have loaded some of my hornet cases 6 times now with no splits, separations, etc. All chamber just fine in a break barrel gun with no camming action from a bolt. I have not trimmed or annealed them. Not sure what else i could ask of the 'thin, lightweight, fragile brass". I do not know how long they will last, but they are going fine.

 

Rick

 

but this is in a .17 ai hornet with the chamber cut by a rifle smith and fire formed brass is it not? Factory brass shoulders and assembly line cut chambers will have a big impact on this i feel (time will tell)

[wymberley]

I have loaded some of my hornet cases 6 times now with no splits, separations, etc. All chamber just fine in a break barrel gun with no camming action from a bolt. I have not trimmed or annealed them. Not sure what else i could ask of the 'thin, lightweight, fragile brass". I do not know how long they will last, but they are going fine.

 

Rick

 

Exactly. I throw away ones that I've shot 6 or 7 times in the falling block rifle that thumps out 50 grains because they've got somewhat 'springy' in the neck. It would be great if I could find out why the more gentle load in the bolt action tends to suffer from extraction problems. Any thoughts are welcome. Although I'm pretty sure I have the solution, not having the problem would be better.

 

Ah! just seen the latest post that was noitified - I'm talking 22 Hornet.

[kent]

A misplaced shot is a misplaced shot no matter the caliber. A poor hit with a .223 or a Swift for that matter will cause a 3 legged Fox just the same. There needs always to be a yardstick to measure by and that would be energy delivered in this instance. I don't play games with the animals I hunt and err on the side of caution. I am willing to bet that none of those doubting the little .17 centerfires have ANY experience with the caliber----rather parroting what they read/heard. i shoot them and know exactly what they are capable of. Case life should be good with the .17 Hornet as well, I have .17 Rem cases that have been annealed and reloaded a dozen times and that is a much hotter round. I have shot Fox with a 20 vmax and it does the job quite well.

Occasionally we are blinded by our own bias, 22 cals are fine but other tools work as well.

 

There is much logic in this. However hornet brass is very,very much thinner than a .17 rem. Energy is by my personal thoughts and practical observations but a guide to terminal effect, the dynamic effect of bullet break up is quite different than a retained energy figure. Take the following .32 s&w long cal hangun with a 100 grn holopoint bullet or a .17 HMR rifle with a 17 grn v-max- which would you choose to shoot your favourite horse to speed its departure from the world? the handgun actually produces less muzzle energy!

[kent]

Exactly. I throw away ones that I've shot 6 or 7 times in the falling block rifle that thumps out 50 grains because they've got somewhat 'springy' in the neck. It would be great if I could find out why the more gentle load in the bolt action tends to suffer from extraction problems. Any thoughts are welcome. Although I'm pretty sure I have the solution, not having the problem would be better.

 

Ah! just seen the latest post that was noitified - I'm talking 22 Hornet.

 

I dont get any issues with RWS brass in the .22. I have only lightly neck sized with a bushing. The brass i have scraped has all been dropped or ejected onto hard surfaces. the stuff is so thin it easily creases, to staighten will over stress the metal at this point so i dont

[CharlieT]

Mever mind the cert, im waiting on my rifle to drop through on my doorstep. The plastic ones are available but i changed my order to a laminate so am still waiting as they are seemingly a bit behind:-(

 

Like you I ordered (and received) the plastic stocked one thinking it would serve my purpose. Mud and rain resistant, scratch proof, light and generally up for a bit of hard use.

 

Yes it works and does what it says on the tin but I hate it with a passion ! I'm seriously thinking of ordering a laminate stock for it but hate to think what Edgar Bros will charge me for it.

 

For info, I put a Wildcat Whisper on mine and it works a treat.

[rimmie]

Mever mind the cert, im waiting on my rifle to drop through on my doorstep. The plastic ones are available but i changed my order to a laminate so am still waiting as they are seemingly a bit behind:-(

 

If you don't mind me asking, how much is the laminate version ? As this is the one I want to order.

[coyotemaster]

Like you I ordered (and received) the plastic stocked one thinking it would serve my purpose. Mud and rain resistant, scratch proof, light and generally up for a bit of hard use.

 

Yes it works and does what it says on the tin but I hate it with a passion ! I'm seriously thinking of ordering a laminate stock for it but hate to think what Edgar Bros will charge me for it.

 

For info, I put a Wildcat Whisper on mine and it works a treat.

There is much logic in this. However hornet brass is very,very much thinner than a .17 rem. Energy is by my personal thoughts and practical observations but a guide to terminal effect, the dynamic effect of bullet break up is quite different than a retained energy figure. Take the following .32 s&w long cal hangun with a 100 grn holopoint bullet or a .17 HMR rifle with a 17 grn v-max- which would you choose to shoot your favourite horse to speed its departure from the world? the handgun actually produces less muzzle energy!

 

Bullet construction plays heavily in this scenario, but a horses head and a Foxes side are different ballparks, I would not use a fragile bullet on a dear animal and risk a horrible wound but a pass through with no expansion on thin skinned game is no more humane. The Vamx is very explosive and seems to come apart at the slightest resistance--ideal for animals with thin skins and light weight. I think the .17 Hornet ammo is 20gr factory and not 17 gr, which is an HMR offering.

 

I am not sure what Savage will charge now for a new lam stock but when I priced one for my M10 ML it was like $250 and I went with a Boyds laminate instead.

[kent]

 

 

Bullet construction plays heavily in this scenario, but a horses head and a Foxes side are different ballparks, I would not use a fragile bullet on a dear animal and risk a horrible wound but a pass through with no expansion on thin skinned game is no more humane. The Vamx is very explosive and seems to come apart at the slightest resistance--ideal for animals with thin skins and light weight. I think the .17 Hornet ammo is 20gr factory and not 17 gr, which is an HMR offering.

 

I am not sure what Savage will charge now for a new lam stock but when I priced one for my M10 ML it was like $250 and I went with a Boyds laminate instead.

 

Yes they are very different as are the two firearms mentioned. I did this on purpose to illustate Muzzle energy or even energy at the point of impact isn'ty the full story on terminals. there is a limit to what you can do with a 20 grn varmint bullet

[coyotemaster]

Yes they are very different as are the two firearms mentioned. I did this on purpose to illustate Muzzle energy or even energy at the point of impact isn'ty the full story on terminals. there is a limit to what you can do with a 20 grn varmint bullet

Point taken Kent. The most appropriate use for the .17 Hornet in your country would be Fox sniping and perhaps rabbits if the components were cheap enough. I am thinking those who try it will love it for fox as the little bullet is perfectly matched for that quarry. I like the sub bores for the efficiency and lack of destruction on fur bearers. I would think .5 would be easily attainable with a decent barrel and that is all you need for a 300 yd rifle.

[Alycidon]

Think I'm going to have to disagree and go with Alycidon. Problem is, I don't really know why and am hoping that he comes back in response to Dekers' request for help in understanding.

 

Physics is all well and good but sometimes, just sometimes what seems to be right actually is right - If it looks right, it flies right. What would happen down range if this small,light, thin skinned and extremely frangible bullet were to strike the skeleton? The physics is good only if the matter/figures/whatever are appropriate and I can't help but feel that in this case they're not and in response to my own quesion I fear the answer could well be a nastily wounded three legged fox.

I was having a hard time with that too!! A 20 gr. at 3600 will dispatch a fox neatly at 250, I have shot dozens of Coyotes with 25s at 3900 and they kill like lightening at 300yds.. Coyotes are double the size of a fox minimum and tough as nails. They usually expire without a quiver when hit with that 25 hp. I don't favor the vmax for Coyotes as it is too fragile and will come apart on the skin at high velocity. Fox are much thinner skinned.

 

I have used a 17AH for about 2 years as my carry trap round gun. In that time I have shot a handfull of foxes with it, no more as my preferred fox rifle is a 20BR, just shots of opportunity as and when they arise. The longest shot was 150/160 yards approx, front on, med size cub trying get a magpie out of a Larsen trap,

It went down, sort of, and had expired by the time I got another one in, (it has a single shot follower installed). Four others at 15yards- 120 yards ish went down as expected but not with the authority of bigger calibers. The last one at about 80 yards was again front on, it did not go down as expected at all and was regrettably lost. I want my foxes dead as I rear a lot of game birds. Over the last three years I have failed to kill on three occasions with the 20BR out to just short of 300 yards, all clean misses, everything hit center boiler room drops as though pole axed. 3 misses and just over 50 fox kills, longest run was 27 for 27.

 

Somebody was saying that 17 Fireball was close to Hornet, Hornet takes about 10.5gr, Fireball 17 gr or so, lot more bang, lot more energy and excellent for the 25 gr bullet. Hornet is at its best with 20s at about 3500/3600. (If anyone wants to swop some 25s for 20s pm me, I have a few 25s that I am unlikely to use) Quieter especially with a small light mod, and its very capable at crows etc out to as far as you can hit them but again I have lost a crow with a leg held on by a sinew only. Luckily I had another chance at it later the same day.

 

I do have a rifle builder friend who has killed over 1000 foxes with his BRNO 22 Hornet since 1964. He is suggesting that I go 20 Hornet as we are playing with the chamber on my 17 at present ( it will probably become the first CZ527 17 Hornet in the UK if we can get the brass !!, this is purely to make it feed and to create a fitted neck to improve the accuracy) but you do need a bit more case capacity than Hornet can offer to do the 20 well. Small case 20 then the Vartarg or 20 Prac is where its at.

 

So I have doubts based on my admittedly limited fox experience with the round that the 20gr Vmax can deliver reliably on foxes at much over 150 yards, think the 20-gr Berger would be somewhat better. While I am not the best shot in the world I am reasonably competent eyesight permitting these days. at least the boys shooting 100BR at Bisley think so as I occasionally venture down there for a bang. I dont want inexperienced shots jumping on the caliber and wounding foxes at 200 yards plus, its not fair on the fox which deserves a clean death. I am quite sure that well placed the round will perform at 250 yards and there is the key, placement, there is no room for error with that round, none. You cant just plonk one through the center chest as you can with a 20 or 22 caliber, thats what I did with my last one and we lost it. I shot a pigeon with one, it blew everything from its chest cavity backwards out of its backside, left a hole 2 inches plus in diameter, yet the bird flew 80 yards. I shot another one in the same place a day later, hardly a mark on it, stone dead.

 

Not really to much help but hopefully you can see my reasons and motives.

 

A

[coyotemaster]

I have used a 17AH for about 2 years as my carry trap round gun. In that time I have shot a handfull of foxes with it, no more as my preferred fox rifle is a 20BR, just shots of opportunity as and when they arise. The longest shot was 150/160 yards approx, front on, med size cub trying get a magpie out of a Larsen trap,

It went down, sort of, and had expired by the time I got another one in, (it has a single shot follower installed). Four others at 15yards- 120 yards ish went down as expected but not with the authority of bigger calibers. The last one at about 80 yards was again front on, it did not go down as expected at all and was regrettably lost. I want my foxes dead as I rear a lot of game birds. Over the last three years I have failed to kill on three occasions with the 20BR out to just short of 300 yards, all clean misses, everything hit center boiler room drops as though pole axed. 3 misses and just over 50 fox kills, longest run was 27 for 27.

 

Somebody was saying that 17 Fireball was close to Hornet, Hornet takes about 10.5gr, Fireball 17 gr or so, lot more bang, lot more energy and excellent for the 25 gr bullet. Hornet is at its best with 20s at about 3500/3600. (If anyone wants to swop some 25s for 20s pm me, I have a few 25s that I am unlikely to use) Quieter especially with a small light mod, and its very capable at crows etc out to as far as you can hit them but again I have lost a crow with a leg held on by a sinew only. Luckily I had another chance at it later the same day.

 

I do have a rifle builder friend who has killed over 1000 foxes with his BRNO 22 Hornet since 1964. He is suggesting that I go 20 Hornet as we are playing with the chamber on my 17 at present ( it will probably become the first CZ527 17 Hornet in the UK if we can get the brass !!, this is purely to make it feed and to create a fitted neck to improve the accuracy) but you do need a bit more case capacity than Hornet can offer to do the 20 well. Small case 20 then the Vartarg or 20 Prac is where its at.

 

So I have doubts based on my admittedly limited fox experience with the round that the 20gr Vmax can deliver reliably on foxes at much over 150 yards, think the 20-gr Berger would be somewhat better. While I am not the best shot in the world I am reasonably competent eyesight permitting these days. at least the boys shooting 100BR at Bisley think so as I occasionally venture down there for a bang. I dont want inexperienced shots jumping on the caliber and wounding foxes at 200 yards plus, its not fair on the fox which deserves a clean death. I am quite sure that well placed the round will perform at 250 yards and there is the key, placement, there is no room for error with that round, none. You cant just plonk one through the center chest as you can with a 20 or 22 caliber, thats what I did with my last one and we lost it. I shot a pigeon with one, it blew everything from its chest cavity backwards out of its backside, left a hole 2 inches plus in diameter, yet the bird flew 80 yards. I shot another one in the same place a day later, hardly a mark on it, stone dead.

 

Not really to much help but hopefully you can see my reasons and motives.

 

A

Spoken very modestly for your obvious amount of experience! I am thinking the little bullet was coming apart on a facing shot before it got where it needed to be. I shot 4-5 Coyotes with 20s before putting them up, dissatisfied. Even the close ones spun a bit before expiring and with a 25HP it would have been bang/flop. The Coyote has a hide that is much harder to cut through with a knife compared to a fox and I found on broadside shots,with a .17 Remington, the 20s put them down quickly and at range. But then again I never or hardly ever get a facing shot---unless it's the tail end I am facing.

The hollow points, either Hornady or Bergers or Nagles all seem to penetrate better than a vmax, but they all suffer from the same BC inferiority. Probably a moot point on a short range gun anyway.

 

It really is a help and it may keep some from stretching the range, particularly on angling or frontal shots. The 20s are tough little bullets and the .20 Practical in an AR platform is gaining huge acceptance here for Coyotes, especially running Coyotes!!!!

CM

Edited October 18, 2012 by coyotemaster

[casts_by_fly]

Point taken Kent. The most appropriate use for the .17 Hornet in your country would be Fox sniping and perhaps rabbits if the components were cheap enough. I am thinking those who try it will love it for fox as the little bullet is perfectly matched for that quarry. I like the sub bores for the efficiency and lack of destruction on fur bearers. I would think .5 would be easily attainable with a decent barrel and that is all you need for a 300 yd rifle.

 

CM,

 

You have to remember that in this country foxes are shot as 'pests' and maximum destruction is the intention. The way foxes are shot is very different to the US. In the US you'll typically call them and take standing shots at reasonable range. Over here 'going foxing' means going spotting and shooting any fox you see that is in range. Like Al says below, a center chest shot is good enough when you're using a a big 22 or a 6mm as there is plenty of energy to go around and a fox that isn't going to just stand there under a light. When you're just sitting out in the woods and one comes strolling through, then you have a bit more time and an unaware fox.

 

I've always thought there is a huge market for fox shooting like in the US (smaller guns, save the furs). If there was an outlet for the furs like the various fur auctions in the US then it would be well worth it for someone over here to do that.

 

 

 

I do have a rifle builder friend who has killed over 1000 foxes with his BRNO 22 Hornet since 1964. He is suggesting that I go 20 Hornet as we are playing with the chamber on my 17 at present ( it will probably become the first CZ527 17 Hornet in the UK if we can get the brass !!, this is purely to make it feed and to create a fitted neck to improve the accuracy) but you do need a bit more case capacity than Hornet can offer to do the 20 well. Small case 20 then the Vartarg or 20 Prac is where its at.

 

A

 

Al,

 

When I got my 17AH I considered all three hornets (17, 20, 22). They all have basically the same energy level (same case capacity). As discussed above, if you want to go for heavier game then you need the bigger diameter and heavier bullets (you know that of course). The 20 hornet didn't seem much of an upgrade to me over the 17 since you'd be talking about the 32gr bullet almost exclusively. If that was the bullet I wanted to shoot, then the vartarg would be the chamber (or a straight 20-222). The little 221 case is about perfect in capacity for the light 20 gr bullets to me, much like the hornet case is about perfect for the light 17's. The actual 221 fireball is nice in 22 cal form (owned one which my dad now has) but it is even sweeter in 20.

 

thanks

rick

[al4x]

I have used a 17AH for about 2 years as my carry trap round gun. In that time I have shot a handfull of foxes with it, no more as my preferred fox rifle is a 20BR, just shots of opportunity as and when they arise. The longest shot was 150/160 yards approx, front on, med size cub trying get a magpie out of a Larsen trap,

It went down, sort of, and had expired by the time I got another one in, (it has a single shot follower installed). Four others at 15yards- 120 yards ish went down as expected but not with the authority of bigger calibers. The last one at about 80 yards was again front on, it did not go down as expected at all and was regrettably lost. I want my foxes dead as I rear a lot of game birds. Over the last three years I have failed to kill on three occasions with the 20BR out to just short of 300 yards, all clean misses, everything hit center boiler room drops as though pole axed. 3 misses and just over 50 fox kills, longest run was 27 for 27.

 

Somebody was saying that 17 Fireball was close to Hornet, Hornet takes about 10.5gr, Fireball 17 gr or so, lot more bang, lot more energy and excellent for the 25 gr bullet. Hornet is at its best with 20s at about 3500/3600. (If anyone wants to swop some 25s for 20s pm me, I have a few 25s that I am unlikely to use) Quieter especially with a small light mod, and its very capable at crows etc out to as far as you can hit them but again I have lost a crow with a leg held on by a sinew only. Luckily I had another chance at it later the same day.

 

I do have a rifle builder friend who has killed over 1000 foxes with his BRNO 22 Hornet since 1964. He is suggesting that I go 20 Hornet as we are playing with the chamber on my 17 at present ( it will probably become the first CZ527 17 Hornet in the UK if we can get the brass !!, this is purely to make it feed and to create a fitted neck to improve the accuracy) but you do need a bit more case capacity than Hornet can offer to do the 20 well. Small case 20 then the Vartarg or 20 Prac is where its at.

 

So I have doubts based on my admittedly limited fox experience with the round that the 20gr Vmax can deliver reliably on foxes at much over 150 yards, think the 20-gr Berger would be somewhat better. While I am not the best shot in the world I am reasonably competent eyesight permitting these days. at least the boys shooting 100BR at Bisley think so as I occasionally venture down there for a bang. I dont want inexperienced shots jumping on the caliber and wounding foxes at 200 yards plus, its not fair on the fox which deserves a clean death. I am quite sure that well placed the round will perform at 250 yards and there is the key, placement, there is no room for error with that round, none. You cant just plonk one through the center chest as you can with a 20 or 22 caliber, thats what I did with my last one and we lost it. I shot a pigeon with one, it blew everything from its chest cavity backwards out of its backside, left a hole 2 inches plus in diameter, yet the bird flew 80 yards. I shot another one in the same place a day later, hardly a mark on it, stone dead.

 

Not really to much help but hopefully you can see my reasons and motives.

 

A

 

this actually tallies with that test on ballistic gel that was shown, a large crater but no real penetration. When the HMR penetrates twice as far you do wonder, certainly most of the shots you've taken I would have taken with the HMR and they would have been chest shots. Its interesting the actual findings in use and getting more apparent there probably isn't an ideal walkabout gun, like your 20 most of mine fall to the .243 and thats had over 50 so far this year and though I've kept it light weight its still not a knockabout gun. I can't help but think a .223 with reasonably light bullets would suit more people but without the hype.

[wymberley]

Alycidon,

 

Would a fair precis of your words be to say that whereas physics may tell us that given an accurate strike with a bullet having x energy is sufficient to kill, a truly aimed shot at the barrel for any one or more of many reasons, may not meet that description at the target and consequently out of respect for our quarry, it is necessary to increase x at ranges where this may increasingly occur to a level that reason dictates that this increase is sufficient to overcome any shortfall in accurate bullet placement as far as is practicable?

[al4x]

isn't it saying that whatever physics says its got the potential for splash wounds if it hits bone, and the bullet is going quick enough that it expands almost too violently. Great for corvids but not necessarily foxes, obviously a differently constructed bullet may change the issue

[wymberley]

isn't it saying that whatever physics says its got the potential for splash wounds if it hits bone, and the bullet is going quick enough that it expands almost too violently. Great for corvids but not necessarily foxes, obviously a differently constructed bullet may change the issue

 

Exactly; an accurate strike is one to the heart/lungs, striking the skeleton comes under, "any one or more of many reasons".

 

Obviously, anything different will change the "issue" - for better or worse - but we're talking about what there is at the moment.

 

Now, until we've had some experience of the calibre, we won't be sure of it's capability. But through debate starting off erring on the side of caution is no bad thing.

[Dekers]

Exactly; an accurate strike is one to the heart/lungs, striking the skeleton comes under, "any one or more of many reasons".

 

Obviously, anything different will change the "issue" - for better or worse - but we're talking about what there is at the moment.

 

Now, until we've had some experience of the calibre, we won't be sure of it's capability. But through debate starting off erring on the side of caution is no bad thing.

 

Precisely, and exactly what I have said from day 1. Talk is cheap and physics are useful, but performance in the field is what we all really want to know! FAR too early to make any real calls on that yet!

 

I still don't see this calibre as the new messiah, obviously some do, footfall at the dealers and the used market place will show its worth over the next few months!

[coyotemaster]

Those who handload may find that the 20 Bergers HP or 25 Hornady HP a better choice at if splash is a problem. I have not seen this on fox but I for sure don't have the fox that there are over there. If I see 10 fox a season anymore it is surprising. Splash is a big problem on Coyotes with the Swift at short range with a Vmax,and is with the .17 with a Vmax as well. I realize most will shoot factory fodder at least initially in the .17 Hornet and are limited to what is available. If it were only suitable for Crows I would up to a .20 or .22. Being no market for the fur it would make sense to use whatever has the greatest utility.