Scully Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Thats spurious reasonaing; how can you be in breach of a condition on a certificate which has expired? Also, there is nothing in law which says they must issue a sec.7 permit if they do not get your renewal doen on time. A sec.7 permit is totally at the discretion of the police. J. Fair enough,I stand corrected regarding the first points;my mistake.However,I don't agree that issuing a section 7 permit is 'totally' at the discretion of the police,or licensing authority. If,by refusing to issue a section 7,leaves a firearms owner in possession of firearms without a valid license,then this would be deemed to be unreasonable,and can be acted upon. If your current license/s expire while you are waiting for renewal, then INSIST that licensing issue you with a section 7 permit or you will lodge a formal complaint,which cannot be ignored.If you are stopped by the police in possession of your own firearms and cannot produce a valid license for those firearms(a photocopy is not a valid license)then that officer is perfectly entitled to seize your guns and take them away.Whether they would or not is open to debate,but they are entitled to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 These things should be challenged, they have no right to check the details of your daughters' boyfriend, neighbors etc. Yep, your right, & I mentioned that at the time. Durham have took this on there own back because of Hordan, I hope it doesn't happen again, but if it does I wonder what they'll come up with next. On another note, since I & many others have gone through this process, FAC's (when they come round) should be straight forward, we'll see at the time..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Fair enough,I stand corrected regarding the first points;my mistake.However,I don't agree that issuing a section 7 permit is 'totally' at the discretion of the police,or licensing authority. If,by refusing to issue a section 7,leaves a firearms owner in possession of firearms without a valid license,then this would be deemed to be unreasonable,and can be acted upon. If your current license/s expire while you are waiting for renewal, then INSIST that licensing issue you with a section 7 permit or you will lodge a formal complaint,which cannot be ignored.If you are stopped by the police in possession of your own firearms and cannot produce a valid license for those firearms(a photocopy is not a valid license)then that officer is perfectly entitled to seize your guns and take them away.Whether they would or not is open to debate,but they are entitled to. You can insist all you like but you cannot make the police do something just because you say they should. Section.7 says; "Police permit. (1)A person who has obtained from the chief officer of police for the area in which he resides a permit for the purpose in the prescribed form may, without holding a certificate under this Act, have in his possession a firearm and ammunition in accordance with the terms of the permit." It only says that by having one you are not in illegal possession. It does not include a requirement that one be issed, unlike the wording relating to certificates which says that the chief officer 'shall' issue one. The real problem with this whole possession with an expired certificate issue is what happens if they refuse your renewal. They will instantly raid your house and sieze all your guns. To be quite honest, I'm pretty amazed that the police are so willing to allow people to do this. The argument seems to be that because of increased checks they apparently need to keep the public safe its ok to allow people to possess illegal guns. If anything, and I mean anything at all, happens when someones cert has expired they media and morons like the GCN are going to be all over it. Can you imagine what the fall out would have been had the Horden shootings happened after Atherton had been in possession of his guns after his cert expired two months previously? To be honest, it just seems like breathtaking stupidity. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) Wasn't it a Hampshire plod who is the ACPO lead on Firearms Licensing and extolling the virtues of online renewals? http://www.acpo.police.uk/ThePoliceChiefsBlog/201209AndyMarshBlog.aspx Edited November 12, 2012 by Greymaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) It's very, very straight forward - if you have no certificate then you are in illegal possession. It is that simple. A firearm certificate is something you have a legal 'right' to as well. If you meet the criteria laid down in law then you must be granted one. The criteria is slightly different depending on which cert you are applying for but it's pretty minor, in reality J.. I think thats not correct to say that you have "no certificate" if you have completed your part of the renewal process, its like renewing your car insurance, you don't stop driving your car until the new car insurance certificate drops through your letterbox. Your certificate will have been renewed, the fact that the purely clerical aspect has had a delay due to staff shortages is an inconvenience but not an issue in law. When your new SGC arrives it will run from the date the old one expired not the date they got round to processing it. What is more of an issue is whether they have updated the computer because that could be a problem. However, its all semantics, it shouldn't happen but its been like it off and on for a very long time Edited November 13, 2012 by Vince Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 You can insist all you like but you cannot make the police do something just because you say they should. It only says that by having one you are not in illegal possession. It does not include a requirement that one be issed, J. Correct,but the points in my post at 51 are still relevant,and still apply.If they refuse a section 7 when a license has expired,then insist they issue the relevant permit or you will lodge a formal complaint,which cannot be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 True that you cannot buy ammo but there is nothing about a sec.7 permit that prevents you from using your guns. J. other than the fact it doesn't let you keep expanding ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 other than the fact it doesn't let you keep expanding ammo It can do if such ammunition is written on it. What they don't do is authorise the purchase of ammo. It is accepted that a FAC states what the firearms listed on it shall be used for, whereas a "Permit" makes no such stipulation. Therefore, by default a S7 permit does not authorise the firearms listed on it to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesbach Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 All in all, a damn good reason to be a BASC member. Get them involved and the process is speeded up no end. If any of the scenarios above dod come true an you were stopped then you will have a strong backing from BASC legal team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 There's nothing stopping you from taking the necessary precautions to ensure you're not in possession of your guns when your licence expires. No one's making you break the law. You're probably more than capable of signing them over to a gun shop, shooting ground or licenced friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 All in all, a damn good reason to be a BASC member. Get them involved and the process is speeded up no end. If any of the scenarios above dod come true an you were stopped then you will have a strong backing from BASC legal team. I think BASC's advice is that you should get your applications in early and if the renewal date approaches request that if they cant issue the certificate, that they issue a section 7 and that if they fail to issue one or the other you will lodge an official complaint. My last renewal went in late- only 2 weeks before the licence was due to expire and i ended up with a dozen weeks of storage charges. My Certificate expires at the beginning of April. I put my application in in the middle of October, having heard some of the horror stories... (and having done a quick tally of what a cabinet full of guns costs to store per month) I have a bemused FEO coming to meet me tomorrow morning. I think the key is getting your renewal in early -dont wait for the renewal forms to arrive. Then there is no question of doubt as to the responsibility for being left without a certificate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) To use that well worn professional footballer phrase:'At the end of the die', if you don't hand over your lapsing certificates with your renewal package,then none of this will be a problem.The problem only exists because licensing ask us (or most of us) to hand in our lapsing certificates,and like sheep we all do it.There is no requirement to do so(and as has been said,this leaves us in illegal possession of firearms,and licensing know this,regardless of what they tell you);send them a copy and tell them you'll send in your old tickets when you get your new ones.This way none of us will be left in illegal possession of our own guns,none of us will risk having those guns seized,and all of us will be able to buy ammo while the process is ongoing.Simples! Storing with RFD or at a mates is not an option,and is totally impractical for me.RFD is 13 miles away,would incur charges,and is closed on Sunday. Mate doesn't have room for all my guns in his cabinets,and even if I took him my cabinets I doubt he'd want more holes drilled into his walls,this is without the legal implications and paperwork involved owing to him having them for months,as a renewal can often take. Edited November 13, 2012 by Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesbach Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Canis - lesson learned then!! 2weeks before, taking the pee!😳😜! Admittedly BASC will say to get it done nice and early, but my point was that if you had done so and were still waiting months later then they would lean on the police a little and fight your corner if need be. Mines due dec 2014...time to put the application in?!?! 😜 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) A letter from the firearms dept saying they won't prosecute you for not holding a certificate for your firearms means nothing. You're still breaking the law, and could still be in trouble for it. who will initiate the prosecution ..... It would need to be the police themselves !! So I doubt I will be getting prosecuted any time soon.. Edited November 13, 2012 by chrispti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think thats not correct to say that you have "no certificate" if you have completed your part of the renewal process, its like renewing your car insurance, you don't stop driving your car until the new car insurance certificate drops through your letterbox. But you are insured though. You do not need to be inpossession of the insurance certificate to be insured just as you do not need to be in possession of your FAC/SGC to legally possess your guns. Your certificate will have been renewed, the fact that the purely clerical aspect has had a delay due to staff shortages is an inconvenience but not an issue in law. It might be renewed or, it might not. You are incorrect to say that it is purely clerical matter. You are in unlawful possession - end of story. Argue it any way you please but your argument would still be wrong. When your new SGC arrives it will run from the date the old one expired not the date they got round to processing it. What is more of an issue is whether they have updated the computer because that could be a problem. However, its all semantics, it shouldn't happen but its been like it off and on for a very long time Bit it won't run from that date until they actually issue it - which could be months down the line. The fact is that until they do so you are in illegal possession. To be honest, I'm not really sure of the legal position in issuing a back-dated certificate. I would suspect that it can't be done because it's not a renewal any more, it's the issue of a new cert. Say, for instance, that your guns get damaged but your insurers refuse to pay out in the grounds that they don't cover illegal firearms. Two months later your new cert turns up, duly renewed from the date your last one expired and you try and get a payout from your insurers. Its looking remarkably close to insurance fraud to me. Like I have said previously, if someone does someone stupid while their cert has expired then all hell is going to break loose in the media. When the press is finished ripping apart a police force who not only allowed someone to be in unlawful possession but actually told them to be so it fall out will be horrendous and it will be shooters who bear the end results. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Correct,but the points in my post at 51 are still relevant,and still apply.If they refuse a section 7 when a license has expired,then insist they issue the relevant permit or you will lodge a formal complaint,which cannot be ignored. The complaint may not be ignored but the result of its investigation might be, 'tough mate - we decide whether we issue a sec.7 permit and we don't have to if we don't want to. Now, about this illegfal possession matter!'. J. other than the fact it doesn't let you keep expanding ammo True. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) It can do if such ammunition is written on it. What they don't do is authorise the purchase of ammo. It is accepted that a FAC states what the firearms listed on it shall be used for, whereas a "Permit" makes no such stipulation. Therefore, by default a S7 permit does not authorise the firearms listed on it to be used. No, he's right. You cannot have a sec.7 permit to possess something which is sec.5, only section 1 or 2. I'm 99% sure that's the case, anyway. You can use them. I've had one before and still used my guns. As we've discussed before, the condition on a FAC says what you must use the guns for, it doesn't authorise their use. A sec.2 gun can be held on a sec.7 permit but SGC's have nothing on them about usage. J. Edited November 13, 2012 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 All in all, a damn good reason to be a BASC member. Get them involved and the process is speeded up no end. If any of the scenarios above dod come true an you were stopped then you will have a strong backing from BASC legal team. Yes, but if a cop stops you in the dead of night and he sees the PNC showing an expired certificate you might be spending a night in the cells. An arrest will show up for ever more on an enhanced CRB check even if no action is taken. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 To use that well worn professional footballer phrase:'At the end of the die', if you don't hand over your lapsing certificates with your renewal package,then none of this will be a problem.The problem only exists because licensing ask us (or most of us) to hand in our lapsing certificates,and like sheep we all do it.There is no requirement to do so(and as has been said,this leaves us in illegal possession of firearms,and licensing know this,regardless of what they tell you);send them a copy and tell them you'll send in your old tickets when you get your new ones.This way none of us will be left in illegal possession of our own guns,none of us will risk having those guns seized,and all of us will be able to buy ammo while the process is ongoing.Simples! Storing with RFD or at a mates is not an option,and is totally impractical for me.RFD is 13 miles away,would incur charges,and is closed on Sunday. Mate doesn't have room for all my guns in his cabinets,and even if I took him my cabinets I doubt he'd want more holes drilled into his walls,this is without the legal implications and paperwork involved owing to him having them for months,as a renewal can often take. No. It's because your certs have actually expired that is the problem. Just because you don't physically have the cert in your possession doesn't make your possesion illegal. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 who will initiate the prosecution ..... It would need to be the police themselves !! So I doubt I will be getting prosecuted any time soon.. I fail to see how the firearms department telling you they won't prosecute would stop the police from doing so. Get pulled up by plod, who discovers you don't hold a valid certificate, immediate arrest, and a decision made by CPS to charge you. Nothing to do with the firearms department. It's a bit like a police officer telling you it's OK to drive through those red traffic lights at 100mph. Just because he says he won't do you for it doesn't mean he can't or won't, nor does it mean his mate with a speed gun watching can't or won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 There's nothing stopping you from taking the necessary precautions to ensure you're not in possession of your guns when your licence expires. No one's making you break the law. You're probably more than capable of signing them over to a gun shop, shooting ground or licenced friend. That's easy to say for shotguns, S1 firearms are a little harder as it's often not possible to get a variation for them - ignoring the time, hassle and cost involved, not all forces will accept 'storage' as the required 'good reason' to grant an FAC slot. The thing is, your missing the point: Why should I pay money to be without my property, which I am legally entitled to, due to police licencing inefficiencies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The complaint may not be ignored but the result of its investigation might be, 'tough mate - we decide whether we issue a sec.7 permit and we don't have to if we don't want to. Now, about this illegfal possession matter!'. Are you serious?A highly unlikely scenario if the licensing authority is responsible for none issue of a new ticket before the expiry of another.Think I'll stick with Mr Harriman if you don't mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I fail to see how the firearms department telling you they won't prosecute would stop the police from doing so. Get pulled up by plod, who discovers you don't hold a valid certificate, immediate arrest, and a decision made by CPS to charge you. Nothing to do with the firearms department. It's a bit like a police officer telling you it's OK to drive through those red traffic lights at 100mph. Just because he says he won't do you for it doesn't mean he can't or won't, nor does it mean his mate with a speed gun watching can't or won't. It's nothing like speeding through a red light, its highly dangerous and could seriously injure or kill someone !! Having an expired sgc won't !!!! If I got pulled by the police and they discovered I had no certificate, then I would show them the letter they sent me stating that I do not have to hand my guns in. The officer who pulled me only has to make a call to verify the letter. Cps would nfa. There's no case there. Plus, the police would be VERY busy arresting the 100s of expired certificate holders all over Hampshire, who's renewals were caught up in the back log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitchrat Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Same thing happened to me a couple of renewals ago. Then they asked to come and check my security, saw I had guns so they cautioned me and confiscated the guns. Three weeks (?) later I was told there was no case to answer and I could reclaim them. So watch out, it's a real risk, lodge your guns with a local gun dealer until the new license arrives. Good luck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Same thing happened to me a couple of renewals ago. Then they asked to come and check my security, saw I had guns so they cautioned me and confiscated the guns. Three weeks (?) later I was told there was no case to answer and I could reclaim them. So watch out, it's a real risk, lodge your guns with a local gun dealer until the new license arrives. Good luck!! Were you written to, saying to keep or store your guns with a qualified person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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