Red diesel / VOSA

[JonathanL]

I Was in our local gunshop some months back, a guy was selling ALL his guns:

He Had Been Caught doing 120MPH on the motorway:

His Shotgun Licence was REVOKED From that moment on, had to take them to gunshop and get rid of them ALL:

He Was Upset, but did say , He was in the Wrong: Be Warned:: Not hearsay, Happened in front of me in the shop:

If its Illegal you will be marked down for fac/Shotun:

 

The problem is though that you never hear the full story. Just because he was saying it doesn't make it the whole truth. I've personally heard first-hand stories from people who have been revoked and diferent stories from other people which lead you to the conclusion that the original person hadn't told the full truth of what went on.

 

Not saying that the story the guy gave you wasn't true but I think it's unlikely that it would have led to a revocation. In fact - if you get revoked then you cannot take them to a gun shop as the police take them from you as you no longer have authority to be in possession. There was very likely more to his story.

 

J.

[CharlieT]

Seems to me the sooner red is done away with the better. I'm more than happy to run my tractors on white and claim a rebate back if it stops all these oiks avoiding tax. Never once has it crossed my mind to run my Landrovers on red, quite why anyone would wish to break the law for a few measly quid a year is beyond me. Another example of how the trash of this country continually do their best to drag it down yet continue to spout forth about spending on welfare.

[BRNDL]

Seems to me the sooner red is done away with the better. I'm more than happy to run my tractors on white and claim a rebate back if it stops all these oiks avoiding tax. Never once has it crossed my mind to run my Landrovers on red, quite why anyone would wish to break the law for a few measly quid a year is beyond me. Another example of how the trash of this country continually do their best to drag it down yet continue to spout forth about spending on welfare.

 

Have you NEVER avoided paying tax, or the full amount of tax on something? No matter how small the £

 

I used to wash cars as a kid, would pay me £30.00 a week. I never declared that. I have also just purchased some expensive (ish) cigars from abroard and have not paid the import tax on them.

 

 

I am aware that this makes me a criminal. Are you a criminal too?

[JonathanL]

It is risk Vs reward.

 

If YOU personally feel the reward of saving money out weighs the potential risks you face of being repremanded for the offence then running red diesel becomes an attractive option. Its significance prevails only in personal circumstances. For instance, a good friend of mine has been running it for 5 years and completes circa 20k a year...

 

Do the maths on this and you WILL find a healthy saving of £6000.00 approx. His risk is small in comparison to his reward, based on his own evaluation.

 

Others for instance, the riskmay out weigh the reward.

 

It may be 'worth the risk', in his opinion, but I think many people come to this conclusion because they are actually a bit stupid and don't understand the concept of a calculated risk. I think that most people think that they simply won't get caught and don't actually give much thought to the consequences of what happens when they do get caught.

 

If there is a risk you will get caught then it means that, statistically speaking, you will get caught eventually. Also, the 'risk' (in terms of consequenses) in your friends case is not 'small' as far as I can see. In fact it is massive. He has been knowingly defrauding the tax man for five years and has saved six grand. He presumably has no recieipts to show for the fuel he has been using for his 20K miles a year so when he gets nicked for running Red, which he will, the tax people will absolutely rape him!

 

He will have to pay back the £6K he has saved, plus interest at an abusive rate. He will probably have his vehicle/s seized and crushed. He will most probably be prosecuted and might go to prison - at best he will get a massive fine. If he is running the fruad through a busines it may end up getting closed down.

 

A six grand saving over five years is a pitiful amount, especially given the seriousness of the offence. Anyone who thinks that is a good risk can't be too bright, to be honest.

 

J.

Edited December 13, 2012 by JonathanL

[JonathanL]

Also there is a member a couple of pages back that has/does work in this field. He states on being pulled over, if customs are present you are issues a fine of £500 on the spot. If customs are not present you car is towed and you have to pay more charges on top of the £500, taking the total to around £750.00

 

I think I am correct in stating that it is repeat offenders or offenders that do not pay the fines that have their vehicle crushed?

 

Yes, as I said - not really worth it. An an average car you have to drive for over 14 months without getting caught to see the benefit. If you are VAT reg then that rises to over 21 months. What's the point to save a few hundred quid a year? As I say, it's mostly done by people who are too stupid to arrive at a sensible decision because they get blinded by greed.

 

j.

[BRNDL]

J,

 

Taking the statement given by the member that does this FOR A JOB...the risk is £500 for your first offence. If the car needs to be towed away it is £150.00 plus £x for storage.

 

Unless you can add some other relevance to ACTUAL repercussions for your first offence then your suggestions are speculative.

 

Now going off what the gent that does this for a job....the risk appears to be minimal.......

[Gordon R]

Jonathan - we don't always agree - that is life. I have to say you are on the money. Suffice to say, the odd individual will not let it rest and try to extract an admission that we are all criminals.

 

It's a free country. If someone is stupid enough to use red diesel. Good luck to them. I trust they will enjoy the benefits of tax evasion, until they get caught. Then they will be bleating that it is unfair - everyone is at it. To quote Mario Balotelli - "Why me".

 

Genuine tax fraudsters rarely go on a public forum and boast about it. That is why they don't always get caught - they aren't as stupid as some.

[BRNDL]

Jonathan - we don't always agree - that is life. I have to say you are on the money. Suffice to say, the odd individual will not let it rest and try to extract an admission that we are all criminals.

 

It's a free country. If someone is stupid enough to use red diesel. Good luck to them. I trust they will enjoy the benefits of tax evasion, until they get caught. Then they will be bleating that it is unfair - everyone is at it. To quote Mario Balotelli - "Why me".

 

Genuine tax fraudsters rarely go on a public forum and boast about it. That is why they don't always get caught - they aren't as stupid as some.

 

Poor response as usual. Typical policeman...knows a lot about nothing. Or are you of the type people drive over, maybe more suitable given your dribble on topics.

 

As for being stupid, LOL.

[Gordon R]

BRNDL - whilst you are being brave - slagging off the Police Force - perhaps you might get an attack of bravery. Publish details of your non-tax paying company.

 

I think not. Armchair warrior. :hmm:

 

You really are a very limited individual. Your lack of education does you no credit. :lol:

 

Or are you of the type people drive over, maybe more suitable given your dribble on topics.

 

That could win a plain English award.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Gordon R

[BRNDL]

Yes my choice of language was poor, you seem to thrive off insignificant mistakes of others on PW.

 

Very limited individual, your wrong. Lack of education, your wrong.

 

Your a policeman....enough said on that one on the education front Mr G, it speaks volumes!

 

 

 

 

......a policeman.....I was very happy when Dennis revealed this.

 

[BRNDL]

This thread has gone WAY off course...

 

Either leave it alone Gordon or try your very best to add some value to it...without arrogance if you can.

[Gordon R]

BRNDL - I will call a halt as you are out of your depth.

[Catweazle]

Yes, as I said - not really worth it. An an average car you have to drive for over 14 months without getting caught to see the benefit. If you are VAT reg then that rises to over 21 months. What's the point to save a few hundred quid a year? As I say, it's mostly done by people who are too stupid to arrive at a sensible decision because they get blinded by greed.

 

j.

 

Isn't this the case with most low-end criminals ? Make £30 right now and don't see the long term losses - financial, freedom, criminal record etc. etc.

[Gordon R]

Catweazle - to get the thread back on track - I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

It is easy to break the law, but some never consider the consequences, believing their chances of getting caught are slim. Slim they might be or might not, but the consequences are not good if you hold a ticket.

[BRNDL]

BRNDL - I will call a halt as you are out of your depth.

 

Ok, thanks Gordon.

 

Hopefully meet on another topic and get along.

 

Enough said,

 

BRNDL

[JonathanL]

J,

 

Taking the statement given by the member that does this FOR A JOB...the risk is £500 for your first offence. If the car needs to be towed away it is £150.00 plus £x for storage.

 

Unless you can add some other relevance to ACTUAL repercussions for your first offence then your suggestions are speculative.

 

Now going off what the gent that does this for a job....the risk appears to be minimal.......

 

He dosn't do it for a job. He's a copper and sometimes stops vehicles on behalf of HMRC so they can do their bit.

 

In fact, the penalties have changed as of 1st November. Now, on top of the £500 you get charged duty and VAT on the capacity of the tank, not just what is actually in it.

 

Also, the point you are missing is that even if it's only the £500 plus the £150 towing fee they charge you then that's just because they can. If they want they to they can report you for prosecution or seize the vehicle. Seriously, it's not worth it, not when you look at it rationally. A lot of people don't seem able to though. Take your mate who's been doing it for 5 years; he's a moron, this is serious tax evasion and he could well go to prison for it. Prison isn't worth £23 a week and anyone who has decided that that is a reasonable risk to run needs to take a course is risk management.

 

J.

Edited December 13, 2012 by JonathanL

[JonathanL]

Isn't this the case with most low-end criminals ? Make £30 right now and don't see the long term losses - financial, freedom, criminal record etc. etc.

 

Precisely. Petty criminality is endulged in by people who are too stupid to realise that it's not worth the risk.....which is why they are petty criminals, they don't have the intelligence to be effective criminals!

 

Fiddling is almost never worth it because it doesn't provide enough benefit. The problem then becomes one of not being able to stop because your whole way of life or business plan becomes ruled by it as you come to depend on it. The only way it stops is when you get caught and then your life goes down the toilet. Like I say, the guy who has spent 5 years using Red diesel is probably going to prison when he gets caught. This will be especialy true if it's not his first time which I suspect it isn't. Prison isn't worth £23 a week, I don't care how long you've been doing it. He also won't have the accumulated lots of £23 as he'll have to pay it back with interest and get fined. They could end up taking his house.

 

J.

[evo]

Jonathan - we don't always agree - that is life. I have to say you are on the money. Suffice to say, the odd individual will not let it rest and try to extract an admission that we are all criminals.

 

It's a free country. If someone is stupid enough to use red diesel. Good luck to them. I trust they will enjoy the benefits of tax evasion, until they get caught. Then they will be bleating that it is unfair - everyone is at it. To quote Mario Balotelli - "Why me".

 

Genuine tax fraudsters rarely go on a public forum and boast about it. That is why they don't always get caught - they aren't as stupid as some.

 

totally agree with yourself gordon and jon,,both spot on :good:

[BRNDL]

J.L

 

I appreciate your point of view here and you have raised good points. I do feel your post lacks thought from the benefits of using red diesel against the actual risk of being caught.

 

Even though the maximum risk is time in prison...what is the likely hood of this happening? Slim to none IMO unless you are a repetitive offender.

What is the likely hood of being caught, very slim IMO Vs the amount of cars on the roads today and how active these operations are throughout the UK.

 

How many years have you and your family and friends been driving...and how many times have you been stopped for inspection?

 

I am not saying it is right to tax dodge, but simply saying people are "stupid" for doing it and they have not weighed up the risks are very short sighted IMO.

 

Not to drag this on so no more posts on this topic from me.

 

Thanks

[Blunderbuss]

I think anyone faced with the OPPORTUNITY to save money or make money, weather it's legit or not would take the opportunity.

 

That's one of the most outrageous things I've ever read on here. Where do you draw the line? Buying stolen goods? Cutting out the middleman and doing the stealing yourself? It's all just an 'OPPORTUNITY to save money or make money, weather (sic) it's legit or not' after all?

 

Shocking

[Gordon R]

That's one of the most outrageous things I've ever read on here.

 

I agree. It is saying we are all criminals, given the slightest chance.

 

People should not judge others by their own criminally low standards.

[JonathanL]

J.L

 

I appreciate your point of view here and you have raised good points. I do feel your post lacks thought from the benefits of using red diesel against the actual risk of being caught.

 

As I was saying, you are misunderstanding the point. The risk (likelihood) of being caught is one thing, the consequenses are another. You may have low risk of being caught but the consequenses of such may be devastating.

 

The main point isn't necessarily being caught it's whether you can handle what happens when you do. You have to assume that you probably will get caught and whether its worth it. As I say, for most people it probably isn't.

 

Even though the maximum risk is time in prison...what is the likely hood of this happening? Slim to none IMO unless you are a repetitive offender.

What is the likely hood of being caught, very slim IMO Vs the amount of cars on the roads today and how active these operations are throughout the UK.

 

A 'very slim' risk of bieng caught? You clearly haven't been reading this thread too closely. One poster has already said that he has been with one of his mates on two occasions when he was caught. The number of cars is irrelevant because they don't randomly check every diesel engined vehicle out there. Thery target areas where people are known/likely to be using illegal fuel

 

You do not need to be a repeat offender to be sent to prison. Your mate who's been using it for five years and who has defrauded the exchequer of circa six grand has a good possibility of going down when he gets caught, which he will be eventually. At best he will get a massive fine.

 

How many years have you and your family and friends been driving...and how many times have you been stopped for inspection?

 

I've never been stopped for a fuel inspection. I'm not in a group who would feature on the official radar though. If I habitually frequented farms, building sites, fish quays or marinas though I may be. Anyone who has regular access to it though, such as your mate, will most probably be stopped eventually. The point is that plenty of people are stopped and done so it does happen.

 

 

I am not saying it is right to tax dodge, but simply saying people are "stupid" for doing it and they have not weighed up the risks are very short sighted IMO.

 

No, it's a rational conclusion to arrive at. Your mate, when he gets caught, will, at best, get a massive fine. He might even go to prison. I think that the word 'stupid' is entirely appropriate to apply to someone who risks prison and his whole life in general for £23 a week. People who do this don't 'weigh the risks', they just assume that it's worth it because they probably won't get caught. A proper evaluation of risk involves a consideration of whether the risk is worth it when you do get caught. What I mean is that they haven't actually sat down and thought, 'I'm going to do X and accept that its worth doing X because the benefit of doing it outweighs the consequenses when I eventually get caught.'.

 

J.

[Sprackles]

Well I will add another little snippet......I have driven 4x4's for a long time, in fact from the 80s and up until the past 5 or 6 years they were landys, series, 111 and 110s.

In all those years my trucks have been dipped only once and when the one in question was dipped it was full of red.

It was parked in a hauliers yard on Grimsby Fish Docks and was dipped as part of a raid on the other trucks there.

Nothing happened to me though because it was neither taxed nor MOT'd and was used solely for ferrying nets and other fishing gear from store to boat which was totally legal back then as the Docks was a private estate.

Had it been taxed however, i would have faced a mighty penalty as it was explained at the time that any vehicle registered for road use must use white diesel regardless of the use it is being given.

My road vehicles have always used white no matter how tempting it was.......the odds on being caught are indeed long but the penalties on being caught can be horrendous.

As they say, you pays yer money, you takes yer chance.

I have seen a haulier friend bankrupted from this....as much as I hate the rip off at the pups, it really isnt worth being caught.

The real crooks are as we all know the government who, if beaten, will change the law...we the lower echelons will never be allowed to win.

Apologies if this seems rambling......I have been wine tasting to get the best one for christmas....hic.

[BRNDL]

I agree. It is saying we are all criminals, given the slightest chance.

 

People should not judge others by their own criminally low standards.

 

I did say I wouldn't comment again,

 

J.L, I have enjoyed reading your replies. Even though you dnt agree entirely with me it's not turned into a slagging match.

 

Although Gordon, I must say it was you that branded ME a criminal for not declaring taxable income was it not? You have NO Idea what my company turns over...if anything at all. So based on you assumption that if you defraud the tax man on any scale you ARE a criminal. No need to sugar coat the right or wrong level of tax evasion....you either do or have done or have not and do not evade, so you either are or are not a criminal?

 

Am I right in saying that at least?

 

As for the other gent saying my statement is OUTRAGEOUS...can he HONESTLY say he has never....NEVER being the key word here purchased something that is not 100% legitimate? I also understand this man saying "where does this all stop". You make your own decisions as to the severity of the crime and the possible repercussions.

 

Maybe it is just me...and I will admit I find it hard to believe some people are willing to suggest they have never engaged in buying something off the black Market ( so to speak).

Edited December 14, 2012 by BRNDL

[BRNDL]

Personally I wouldn't brand someone a criminal if they had bought cigs and booze beyond their limit back from France as long as it was for their own consumption.

 

Ever paid money and had a CASH job done on the farm/house hold, hired a labourer for the day and paid him cash? All these are black or White situations.