jimmyb79 Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 I'm hoping someone can help on this as I'm at a bit of a loss. I have a Sako Quad .17hmr with a Leupold VX-R scope and DM80 moderator. Scope and mod were new when I bought them and the rifle was second-hand with 'light use' so I was told... Since I started using the rifle I have always felt that the gun was never shooting in the same place after being put away and then out again. I have up to this point cleaned it with solvent and brushes after each outing. After I last zeroed it, I then gave it a full clean and put it away, went out last night and took three shots at quarry all within 100 yds and no wind. Missed every one of them. Got home after that and checked screws etc and found the action screws were just a tiny bit loose. I also remounted the scope Went out this afternoon to re-zero again and thought I had it sorted. At 50yds it was shooting bang on. Then removed mod, put rifle away and got back out, refitted mod. It was shooting a touch lower than before but grouping was ok. Then moved target out to 100yds, and it shot high and left shooting about a 3-4 inch group. I was shooting off a bonnet but the gun was on a bipod and bags at the back and was quite stable so it should be better than that. I moved the turrets and it shot bang on for 4 shots. Then aimed at a different point and it shot one an inch left and one an inch right. Then aimed at a different point and it shot a beautiful clover leaf group, but three inches low! I can't see any evidence of clipping on the mod, although I wouldn't necessarily know what to look for and would imagine that if it was that, it just wouldn't group full stop? I haven't tried without mod due to noise issues but might be able to do that on Sunday if the weathers ok. When shooting it at 50yds I used different magnifications on the scope and that held, but I haven't ruled out a scope issue. I wonder whether it might be the gun itself but don't know how I'd know. The barrel rifling looks good to the naked eye, but its a small calibre so hard to see, so basically have narrowed it down to gun, mod or scope (helpfully!) However, I'm using blue-tip V-max's that came with the gun, I have no idea how old they are so can't say its not ammo! Don't know what else to check or the next action to take... Grateful for any help as tearing my hair out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe soapy Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 barrel channel exerting variable pressure on barrel. free float and try again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 (edited) Have the action screws worked loose again? Edited March 15, 2013 by cockercas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snipers eye Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 I'm hoping someone can help on this as I'm at a bit of a loss. I have a Sako Quad .17hmr with a Leupold VX-R scope and DM80 moderator. Scope and mod were new when I bought them and the rifle was second-hand with 'light use' so I was told... Since I started using the rifle I have always felt that the gun was never shooting in the same place after being put away and then out again. I have up to this point cleaned it with solvent and brushes after each outing. After I last zeroed it, I then gave it a full clean and put it away, went out last night and took three shots at quarry all within 100 yds and no wind. Missed every one of them. Got home after that and checked screws etc and found the action screws were just a tiny bit loose. I also remounted the scope Went out this afternoon to re-zero again and thought I had it sorted. At 50yds it was shooting bang on. Then removed mod, put rifle away and got back out, refitted mod. It was shooting a touch lower than before but grouping was ok. Then moved target out to 100yds, and it shot high and left shooting about a 3-4 inch group. I was shooting off a bonnet but the gun was on a bipod and bags at the back and was quite stable so it should be better than that. I moved the turrets and it shot bang on for 4 shots. Then aimed at a different point and it shot one an inch left and one an inch right. Then aimed at a different point and it shot a beautiful clover leaf group, but three inches low! I can't see any evidence of clipping on the mod, although I wouldn't necessarily know what to look for and would imagine that if it was that, it just wouldn't group full stop? I haven't tried without mod due to noise issues but might be able to do that on Sunday if the weathers ok. When shooting it at 50yds I used different magnifications on the scope and that held, but I haven't ruled out a scope issue. I wonder whether it might be the gun itself but don't know how I'd know. The barrel rifling looks good to the naked eye, but its a small calibre so hard to see, so basically have narrowed it down to gun, mod or scope (helpfully!) However, I'm using blue-tip V-max's that came with the gun, I have no idea how old they are so can't say its not ammo! Don't know what else to check or the next action to take... Grateful for any help as tearing my hair out! i had a similar problem,turned out the scope would not hold zero,replaced it,problem solved,ps how you finding the dm80? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb79 Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Thanks so far chaps. The action screws have not worked loose this time after 60 rounds in total. I shot the DM80 and SAK mods one after the other and my personal opinion is the DM80 is ever so slightly quieter but nothing that you'd notice if you didn't shoot them one after the other. I do like the reflex style and glare-free powder coating though. I'm concerned it is the scope, but loathed to send it back until I've satisfied myself its not something really silly. Just spoke to a gunsmith who said that the first thing he'd check is ammo. I had 400 rounds of blue-tip Hornady V-max's of which 20 I had to get rid of because they'd all oxidised etc. Since writing the original post, I have counted out the empties from earlier and found that some had unburnt powder in them which could account for inconsistency I imagine... The barrel is definitely floating right up to the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telf Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 i to would think scope,had a similar problem with a brand new mtc genesis,took it back and exchanged for another one,problem solved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 I know you said no wind. But from the description as you write it it sounds like your having wind issues. A HMR will take an inch and a half of wind in conditions you might see as nothing without flags and twirlies out along the 100 yds. My opinion is take it to a tunnel range or await a day with a very light but steady wind blowing directly towards you set the zero up- then ignore any deviations from that zero as regards re-zero until you can go back to the tunnel range or light headwind situation and re-test. I don't know anyone who can 100% call a 2mph switching wind at 100yds, it might not even occur at the shooters position. Yes a 2-3mph intermittent wind can ruin a good group from a HMR and don't take this the wrong way please as I don't know your past performance but many totally fail to put in a 4" group at 100yds - DSC tests prove this, despite nobody ever admitting to it on forums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb79 Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Cheers Kent, fair point. I will be trying different ammo and going down the diagnostic route but do take your point. Not sure whether there's a tunnel range anywhere near me that would let me shoot the hmr? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Take the mod off and try again, My friend had a similar problem on a Browning T bolt he zeroed countless times, checked the scope brand new Leupold VX1, I happened to turn up at his farm with my HMR I took his mod off and bingo spot on no flyers put back and it went back to being all over the place I put my mod on his and it was spot on again, its worth a try. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Try again without the mod, or borrow a different one. That's the easiest thing to check first. If that doesn't cure it borrow another scope. Ammo performance should be consistent. It may be consistently bad if its not the right brand for your rifle but is won't vary day to day. Rifles shouldn't change POI when the mod is removed and replaced. They need to be removed after use to stop the crown from rusting, but some don't like it if the threading on the muzzle or the mod is less than perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snipers eye Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Thanks so far chaps. The action screws have not worked loose this time after 60 rounds in total. I shot the DM80 and SAK mods one after the other and my personal opinion is the DM80 is ever so slightly quieter but nothing that you'd notice if you didn't shoot them one after the other. I do like the reflex style and glare-free powder coating though. I'm concerned it is the scope, but loathed to send it back until I've satisfied myself its not something really silly. Just spoke to a gunsmith who said that the first thing he'd check is ammo. I had 400 rounds of blue-tip Hornady V-max's of which 20 I had to get rid of because they'd all oxidised etc. Since writing the original post, I have counted out the empties from earlier and found that some had unburnt powder in them which could account for inconsistency I imagine... The barrel is definitely floating right up to the action. hi again,done some research and found that you might be over cleaning it.it seems that the hmr is more accurate when barrel is dirty,alot of lads have said that after cleaning,accuracy wont return to normal until between 5-20 rounds are fired,and the barrel gets dirty again,and it seems that a lot of lads wont clean the barrel until they notice a fall in accuracy,so i would suggest putting through a dozen so rounds and see what happens,and if that works just dont clean the barrel until you notice a fall off in accuracy,hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb79 Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Cheers bud. I've now shot 63 through since last cleaning so when I next go out it should be nicely fouled up. Providing weather is ok, Sunday will be the day for testing. Mod/no mod/different mod, different scopes, different ammo. Hopefully something obvious will come up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snipers eye Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Cheers bud. I've now shot 63 through since last cleaning so when I next go out it should be nicely fouled up. Providing weather is ok, Sunday will be the day for testing. Mod/no mod/different mod, different scopes, different ammo. Hopefully something obvious will come up! your most welcome mate,i have also heard a re crown solves accuracy problems,the crown can be damaged by previous owners,hope you find the answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 hi again,done some research and found that you might be over cleaning it.it seems that the hmr is more accurate when barrel is dirty,alot of lads have said that after cleaning,accuracy wont return to normal until between 5-20 rounds are fired,and the barrel gets dirty again,and it seems that a lot of lads wont clean the barrel until they notice a fall in accuracy,so i would suggest putting through a dozen so rounds and see what happens,and if that works just dont clean the barrel until you notice a fall off in accuracy,hope this helps Oh dear! Properly Cleaning a true barrel will only ever maintain accuracy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 There could be a number of answers to this problem or possibly a combination of answers. Good proper cleaning is only ever an advantage, over cleaning as such does not exist, bad cleaning does, very few people wear out a barrel by cleaning it too much! You need to start eliminating things. Check the barrel and crown for damage, remove the mod and shoot at short distances. Wind can cause an issue, but for my money if that lot is eliminated the problem sound like scope/mounts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243ack Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Oh dear! Properly Cleaning a true barrel will only ever maintain accuracy! .22LR ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 (edited) .22LR ? I'm not following you? .22lr using subs and for field work is seldom cleaned by many people because the benefit in that environment can be minimal. Just the same a clean true .22lr barrel will shoot more accurately than a true dirty .22lr! All this talk of leading/fouling/getting the barrel dirty to make it shoot straight is rubbish in a true barrel, it will only make it worse. If your barrel is knackered and pitted then there may be a small argument that fouling can smooth the bore a little and maybe help, there is stronger argument to buy a new gun in that case! Edited March 16, 2013 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffo223 Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 My quad is only cleaned when the accuracy drops off , when cleaned it takes 50 rounds to get it back on song. It sounds like you have a moderator issue with your quad, I had a similar issue when I tried a scirroco mod on my 17 quad, without mod spot on with mod all over the place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David 686 Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Check the crown is a good idea. I only clean it when you start to miss rabbits you know was a good head shot. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 I'm not following you? .22lr using subs and for field work is seldom cleaned by many people because the benefit in that environment can be minimal. Just the same a clean true .22lr barrel will shoot more accurately than a true dirty .22lr! All this talk of leading/fouling/getting the barrel dirty to make it shoot straight is rubbish in a true barrel, it will only make it worse. If your barrel is knackered and pitted then there may be a small argument that fouling can smooth the bore a little and maybe help, there is stronger argument to buy a new gun in that case! That's true. My .22 shoots subs better when its clean, particularly at long range, but not so significantly better at hunting ranges to warrant constant faffing. It gets cleaned thoroughly about twice a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb79 Posted March 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 To be fair so far I've thoroughly cleaned after every outing whether that be after 3 shots or 300. I've yet to settle into a proper cleaning regime but the most popular I've heard seems to be boresnake after each outing with a proper clean every now and then. I've bought some different ammo today with Remington, Winchester and brand new Hornady so as soon as the weather is good enough I'll get out and test everything. There's no visible crown damage and the holes in the mod are all intact but I've never seen a mod that's clipped so not sure what to look for. Hopefully will get to the bottom of it...else I'll be putting in for a 1 for 1 variation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Don't fret on cleaning the HMR the only fault is partial cleaning. New HMRs need a fair bit of running in IMO. My money is still on wind and you chasing a total set no wind zero. 22lr and .17 hmr are totally different beasts due to lube and no lube copper jacket and lead with a copper wash at most. 22's need running back in to perform at their best HMRs dont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPARKIE Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 i only clean my hmr when the group size starts to open up after about 200 rnds... its onsong it will clover leaf no probs. It then takes about 15 rnds to dirty up and get back its accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 My HMR also likes a 100 round clean, but I don't wait for misses. It doesn't get used for plinking just rabbit control. I know how many shots I've put through it from a diary I keep on rabbits shot so I clean it after the 100 mark whether its getting erratic or not. It will probabIy go further than 100 rounds now as i got into that routine when the rifle was new, but it works and gives me a dependable rifle that is always shooting sweetly so I stick to it. I clean with bore foam and Butches bore shine and run dry patches until the last patch is completely spotless. It will not need 'shooting in'. It will be still be on zero first shot. In fact I don't always check zero after every cleaning, unless I think I might have knocked the scope, or I've started a new batch of ammo. I don't run a bore snake through after shooting. I leave it alone until its clean is due. If it gets a soaking it'll get a full clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snipers eye Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 My HMR also likes a 100 round clean, but I don't wait for misses. It doesn't get used for plinking just rabbit control. I know how many shots I've put through it from a diary I keep on rabbits shot so I clean it after the 100 mark whether its getting erratic or not. It will probabIy go further than 100 rounds now as i got into that routine when the rifle was new, but it works and gives me a dependable rifle that is always shooting sweetly so I stick to it. I clean with bore foam and Butches bore shine and run dry patches until the last patch is completely spotless. It will not need 'shooting in'. It will be still be on zero first shot. In fact I don't always check zero after every cleaning, unless I think I might have knocked the scope, or I've started a new batch of ammo. I don't run a bore snake through after shooting. I leave it alone until its clean is due. If it gets a soaking it'll get a full clean. anyone clean the barrel with white spirits?i use it on the 22lr, the barrel shines after 3 pull throughs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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