Animal Mother Posted May 13, 2013 Report Share Posted May 13, 2013 My lovely lady and I are in the market for a couple of guns. I'm getting a 12G semi auto, simple. For her, it's a little more difficult. Semi's are too long for her LOP and distance to the fore end. So, over/under it is for her, something like a Winchester 101 (27" barrel) fits her well. However, the recoil, we have been cautioned, could be something of concern. Now, there seems to be three differing viewpoints (and some breaking of the laws of physics ) of what people should do regarding weights or shotguns and recoil reduction: 1. Use a normal weight 12G with a light load. 2. Use a lighter 12G with a light load 3. Use a 20G (usually lighter than the 12G equivalent) - generally there aren't comments on load weight. Now, if you apply Newton's 3rd Law to each of these scenarios, there's only one outcome which will work, scenario 1! This is a good little utility to help prove the concept http://zknives.com/bali/brcstgn.shtml and this is a good explanation of the 3rd Law. http://www.dynamicscience.com.au/tester/solutions/war/newton/recoilless.htm Sooo, it looks like we'll be getting an O/U of about 3kg to 3.5kg and load it up with 21g stainless steel shot (which has the bonus of being nice and cheap too!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted May 13, 2013 Report Share Posted May 13, 2013 There more to it than simple recoil if she is not strong enough the heavier gun will tire her faster especially if its front heavy. For me the answer depends what's she is doing sporting clays 10 shots gun back in slip and into rack normal 12 bore with light load. Game shooting etc carrying the gun all day light gun 12 or 20 with sensible loads no 32g semi magnums 23-28 kill perfectly well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted May 13, 2013 Report Share Posted May 13, 2013 As above need the right tool for the job. It must fit budget for professional fitting taking into account her build. Her muscles will develop over time if she keeps shooting and will find a heavier gun nicer to shoot after a few months. My opinion is for clays buy a cheap light 12G use 21g shell Compx or eley first and get the gun fitted to her and with a quality recoil pad. For game look for a 20G or even 28G well fitted with good recoil pad and balanced to suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal Mother Posted May 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2013 It's for clays only. So 12G is on the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted May 13, 2013 Report Share Posted May 13, 2013 (edited) Cheaper to feed more choice of loads safer if your taking both put a 20 bore cart it a 12 can be lethal......rest is down to budget..... For my missus its a Browning B2G game gun 26/27" 1/4 and 1/2........well it will be eventually Oh and not being blunt but choice of bra makes a big difference apparently...... Why a semi for yourself? Edited May 13, 2013 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubris Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Perceived 'kick' is both about how much energy your shoulder absorbs and over what time frame. Although handling the same energy, due to the time it takes to compress springs and buffers, a semi will give the lowest perceived kick and a wood stock version can be fitted to suit your missus. If yours is like mine was then she may find it too tiring to swing a 12 for more than ten minutes to start with. Unfortunately this fact alone dictated that we had to go with a 20 for her and mitigate recoil with other measures. (It also had to be an O/U because like it or not, image means a lot to girls and she just didn't like semi's!) Recoil is a function of mass of lead thrown and speed. Whatever gun you go for start off with slower ammunition such as the Hull Subsonics. This way you won't have to compromise so much on loads as less lead means less dense patterns so shorter effective range and possibly more misses and quicker frustration. 28 gram subs kick noticeably less than 24 gram high velocity. Finally, get her a tool she enjoys and don't ever let her get scared of it kicking her, even if to start with that means a cup of tea after ten shots if she is feeling it and going home after another dozen before she starts to really wince. Don't worry she'll soon toughen up. Good luck, J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA-airgunner Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 (edited) Beretta A400 light with kick off my son has been shooting mine and loves it .....he is 12 .....the Beretta is light and I be leave the same length as an o/u with 27" barrel What's your location if your local I'm sure we can get together so your wife can try the gun Edited May 14, 2013 by BSA-airgunner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 I can supply Bernardelli semi autos with 24" barrel, at prices that won't break the bank. http://www.bernardelli.com The first batch of guns are due in about 10 days. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 either get a short 12gauge auto or a 20gauge short auto. i handled a SS benelli, and they are extremely light. silly light really, no recoil too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 My missus was using a 12 semi, but the weight of the gun became to much despite being small framed size 10 who does some manual work so is strong for her size. Recoil was never really a problem if doing 50 birds, but if we were on 100 birds then she would tire from the weight and then get knocked about by the recoil, tried a friends lincon 20 o/u which was very light and she loved it,so much so i'm on the look out for one, or actually 2 because another lady friend wants the same after trying it as well! My advice would be see what you can borrow for her to try out, try at least one 20 o/u. Don't worry about 20 bore cartridge price, you may well be able to use cheap 12 bore clay busters, but for ease of recoil you'll end up buying quallity (softer on the shoulder) 12 bore cartridges for the wife at more than the price of 20 bore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 My wife has a (slightly) shortened 20 bore silver pigeon. She doesn't shoot a great deal, clay cartridges are slightly more expensive than for my 12 bore. IIRC, the last 1000 cost about £190, for a 24g No.8 in fibre wad. That 1000 will probably last her the entire year, so the additional cost over time works out so low as to be ignorable. She did try a 12 bore, but found the additional weight of the frame/gun to be quite tiring (she is only 5'2" tall, and quite petite). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal Mother Posted May 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Generally, the "dead" weight of the gun isn't an issue for her. She used to spend an entire day on the range with a rifle weighing 5kg (11lb), firing in all positions including stood up, squating and kneeling. She didn't have a problem with that as the rifle was nice and short and she could really pull it in to the shoulder and get under the rifle. The key for her is the "fit" of the gun. As long as she can get it into her shoulder nicely with head in the right position and can take the weight and control the weapon with her other arm/hand, she'll be good. The recoil is more of a fatigue matter as some of you have alluded to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 My daughter is slight build and 5'3" and loves her Benelli Woodcock (24" 12 gauge). It cycles light loads ok with no issues and recoil is moderate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Weight of the gun vs weight and speed of the load has some bearing on recoil but gun fit I think is the most important. If the gun doesn't fit very well it will kick regardless of what it is and what you put through it. As said above; try a few out and go with what feels right. Above all, have fun with it. ATB Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAsh Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 What about a Yeliz 28 gauge or simular, light weight and light loads and perfect for clays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Generally, the "dead" weight of the gun isn't an issue for her. She used to spend an entire day on the range with a rifle weighing 5kg (11lb), firing in all positions including stood up, squating and kneeling. She didn't have a problem with that as the rifle was nice and short and she could really pull it in to the shoulder and get under the rifle. The key for her is the "fit" of the gun. As long as she can get it into her shoulder nicely with head in the right position and can take the weight and control the weapon with her other arm/hand, she'll be good. The recoil is more of a fatigue matter as some of you have alluded to. Was that an SA80? My wife find them easier as they are short more weight (most of it) is between the hands on a bullpup. This where the balance of the gun will be more important than overall weight. A well balanced gun will feel lighter than a front heavy one. To bring the balance point back with a shortened stock you may need to add some lead to the stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal Mother Posted May 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Was that an SA80? My wife find them easier as they are short more weight (most of it) is between the hands on a bullpup. This where the balance of the gun will be more important than overall weight. A well balanced gun will feel lighter than a front heavy one. To bring the balance point back with a shortened stock you may need to add some lead to the stock. It was, yes.We were both REMFs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 As above the balance is key cheaper guns tend to be poorly balanced and front heavy from the factory with a shorter stock it gets worse, on a side note MC guns are a touch heavier than the FC alternative in most makes but that extra few oz is right at the end of the barrel More Archimedes than Newton... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt fieldcrafter-uk Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 My mrs who is about 6 stone and 5foot tall (beautiful petite lady ) shoots 12 g with 21 gram loads up to 28gram . After lots of tests we found that it was simply the weight of the gun that's against her . She only wants to shoot 12 g !! My little lad , 10 years old also shoots 12g with the same loads and on occasion 30gram but not many (usually if he has a spree of misses with 21 gram) They both find that guns to long or heavy ruin the day for them . I bought a rizini under over for Gemma and a single shot biakle for Finn my son . The biakle is so light it's has felt recoil even with 21 gram loads !!! The rizini being very heavy has non ! They both love my old BSA side by side ejector in 12g so much so I'm thinking of doing a stock chop on it for them and il shoot the rizini . Gemma is now thinking she is ready to move up to 24gram as her standard load and 28gram for hunting . And my lad is just so keen he would shoot 50gram if he thought it would get him more pigeons !! Good luck with it , the only thing I would have done differently would have been to try more guns before spending . But saying that we have all learned loads from the process and they can both hold there own in conversations about gun fit etc . Gemma can now actually do a few trick shots too . Through out a spud and hit it with one shot . Or kick up a stone of her foot and then barrel it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal Mother Posted May 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 My mrs who is about 6 stone and 5foot tall (beautiful petite lady ) shoots 12 g with 21 gram loads up to 28gram . After lots of tests we found that it was simply the weight of the gun that's against her . She only wants to shoot 12 g !! My little lad , 10 years old also shoots 12g with the same loads and on occasion 30gram but not many (usually if he has a spree of misses with 21 gram) They both find that guns to long or heavy ruin the day for them . I bought a rizini under over for Gemma and a single shot biakle for Finn my son . The biakle is so light it's has felt recoil even with 21 gram loads !!! The rizini being very heavy has non ! They both love my old BSA side by side ejector in 12g so much so I'm thinking of doing a stock chop on it for them and il shoot the rizini . Gemma is now thinking she is ready to move up to 24gram as her standard load and 28gram for hunting . And my lad is just so keen he would shoot 50gram if he thought it would get him more pigeons !! Good luck with it , the only thing I would have done differently would have been to try more guns before spending . But saying that we have all learned loads from the process and they can both hold there own in conversations about gun fit etc . Gemma can now actually do a few trick shots too . Through out a spud and hit it with one shot . Or kick up a stone of her foot and then barrel it ! Matt, what a great little write-up. Thank you. Well, today, I've put the deposit down on a nice little Miroku O/U 12G 26" skeet for her. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Get her to shoot it before buying ideally with a coach that's knows there stuff and has no vested interest in the sale... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Where are you there a few coaches on here that may be willing to help you out if you near drop me a message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt fieldcrafter-uk Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Don't you think coaches make new shooters very wooden ? I'm at the stage now that both Finn and Gemma can shoot from gun down position as you do in the real word . They spot targets fast now , hit more and on the whole are much better with gun handling . A mate has just spent weeks paying for and taking his mrs to clay lessons . But now he's got to undo all the awkwardness of her stance and gun handling as real targets don't come out towers ! Just my observation anyway . I'm sure the little miroku will fit the bill and get your wife out there shooting with the rest of us ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) Don't you think coaches make new shooters very wooden ? I'm at the stage now that both Finn and Gemma can shoot from gun down position as you do in the real word . They spot targets fast now , hit more and on the whole are much better with gun handling . A mate has just spent weeks paying for and taking his mrs to clay lessons . But now he's got to undo all the awkwardness of her stance and gun handling as real targets don't come out towers ! Just my observation anyway . I'm sure the little miroku will fit the bill and get your wife out there shooting with the rest of us ! Nope, awkwardness Shooting gun down is great if you have a consistent mount and and mount the gun well every time. If not sometimes it will work others it wont, how do you know what the problem was? Coaches will and should teach a mixture of techniques to each shooter gun up or down, swing through, maintained lead etc. Edited May 15, 2013 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt fieldcrafter-uk Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Ok , imagine someone in a hide you see a bird 200 yards out its deffo decoying , the shooter "needs" the gun mounted from that moment to line up the shot , rather than gun down until the right moment ( in my mind ) to stand , mount and swing . That's pretty awkward There's never been a need for a last moment weight shift or adjustment of foot position so there isn't one just a snatched shot , awkward ? Not maintaining observation of incoming birds and as much of the sky as possible to Select the appropriate bird to give you the best chance of a kill ! All pretty wooden . This is not Criticism of the shooter there skills or anything else just observation . I know coaches do great jobs and there skill is not in question but it is more clay focused . Coaching in the field is very different and I think it's pretty accurate to say you earn your stripes when shooting live quarry through failure then success , trail an error . Lets face it most of us learned from old more experienced shots who hold no qualifications in the shooting industry . I'm teaching two people from very diverse ends of society and age groups. both are enjoying not just success shooting but constant improvement of gun safety, the law , field craft , and what the sport is truly about responsibly enjoying the excitement of shooting shotguns at a pretty wide verity of targets . Of course a coach can do the same but at a cost and with out the experience shared with loved ones ! I'm sorry if I have offended anyone it was not my intention ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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