Delivery problems

[Mr. Merkel]

Hi, all I am hoping for some advice, tricks or tips to overcome a delivery problem with my lab dog, in as much that he will not bring the dummy to hand but will prance around coming back and forth touching my hand with the dummy and panting heavily almost grunting, its almost as if he allows me to touch the dummy but its his and I cannot have it..

This is a problem that has raised its head before as a result I do little retrieving with him due to this issue, I stop and go back to basic with him, he is now 14 months old. He is fine in all other aspects so far sometimes a little nervy other times excitable.

Introducing a dummy seems to scramble his brains and he forgets everything that we have done hence going back to basics. I now feel I will run the risk of boring him if I don’t move on and do more interesting training with him.

I have tried walking away and ignoring him, also calling him to heel and letting him walk with me for some distance but as soon as I put my hand down and say dead the panting starts and he is on for a game and all the commands of sit heel and here go out of the window.

It was suggested previously to sit him and placing the dummy in his mouth and taking it away with DEAD this was tried repeatedly only to be met by a paw and claws after the DEAD command, late last summer my hands and arms were scratched to hell by this pawing catching me out.

Has anyone else experienced this before and overcome it, if so I would be grateful to hear how or does anyone have any suggestions to overcome this problem.

Many thanks.
Tim

[Millomite]

This is a familiar problem. To me it sounds like a lack of general obedience.

 

Forget the dummy for three weeks and concentrate on getting him recalling and sitting in front of you first time, every time. If he stops a few feet short, do not alter your position, but just reach and get him in front of you. Keep doing it until he religously comes and sits at your feet. Don't worry about it being boring etc, you need to ingrain it in his mind that when you blow the recall whistle he has to come to your feet, regardless of where, what, he is doing or if he has something in his mouth.

 

When you feel he is recalling like this, try with a dummy. If he starts to deviate on the way back, get straight out after him and gently take him under his chin and walk him to where you were stood, and make him sit. You need to be consistent with this and not let him get a way with it. For now don't worry about him dropping the dummy when you get after him, the purpose is to get him to come into you and sit.

 

I had a similar problem with one of my cockers, after speaking with Will Clulee a few weeks ago when I took a bitch down to be lined, he suggested this and showed me what he meant. In three weeks there's been a 90% improvement, still get the occasionally deviation but I just get out after her.

[Paul223]

Have you tried sitting him, moving away and dropping the dummy by your side, not allowing him to move and correcting him if he does, then picking the dummy yourself, dropping the dummy a little further each time, this will teach the dog steadiness and enforce that the dummy is yours and not his, always ending a retrieving session on you picking the dummy, to show it is yours.

[the pigeon man]

Plenty of treats !! Food is the way to a labs heart !! My lab will always ether sit on my left side or direct in front of me, bird at my feet looking straight up waiting for a treat his 10 month old

Edited May 14, 2013 by the pigeon man

[WGD]

Plenty of treats should ensure he spits the bird at your feet...

[lee-kinsman]

Plenty of treats....... in my opinion asking for trouble to reward a working dog with treats especially for a retrieve. Dogs aren't stupid they know and would love to eat freshly shot rabbits, pheasant, pigeon. And it tastes better to them than any manufactured treat.

 

My lab will always always sit on my left side offering the retrieve straight up until I choose to take it.

 

Treats for retrieves misses the point and is a bad idea. The retrieve is the treat.

Edited May 14, 2013 by lee-kinsman

[Pidge]

I've always used treats and have never had a dog that spits its retrieve. It is all in the timing.

[Sir_Adam]

Likewise i use treats and mine brings it to hand each time. But I don't reward him every time.

[jeffd]

I think treats do have a place with some dogs but as other posters have said timing is critical, the treat should never be a bribe as this will often induce spitting of the dummy, treat should be out of sight and only given after a correct delivery.

[beeredup]

yeah been having this trouble with Bullet but he is only young and seems to want to play and tease me with the dummy

[PERCE]

Plenty of treats should ensure he spits the bird at your feet...

Love the dry humour.......

[the pigeon man]

I think treats do have a place with some dogs but as other posters have said timing is critical, the treat should never be a bribe as this will often induce spitting of the dummy, treat should be out of sight and only given after a correct delivery.

+1

[Pidge]

I think treats do have a place with some dogs but as other posters have said timing is critical, the treat should never be a bribe as this will often induce spitting of the dummy, treat should be out of sight and only given after a correct delivery.

If it's done right you can have the treat in view and the dummy still won't be given up until it is asked for

[beeredup]

would using a long lead help with stopping him ********* off with the dummy? or would that make things worse?

[Mr. Merkel]

Hi all and thanks for the replies and emails I have received some good advice, if I was asked for my dogs strengths and weaknesses I would say his recall is very good but not quiet 100 per cent on the whistle to verbal "Here" and the good old thigh slap he will sit facing me waiting for a treat, weaknesses are walking to heel off the lead (easily distracted by rubbish blown on the wind ect.) which we work on daily and his delivery of a dummy, retrieving has now been put on the back burner for a while.

 

As for the retrieve he will mark well and run out and back in a straight line to hidden and seen retrieves its the delivery which is the problem, I have tried him on a retractable lead the final 2 feet he has to be coaxed in with gentle pulling to taken the dummy, I am reluctant to use treats for retrieving as I have concerns about the retrieve being spate out in anticipation of the treat, this is a problem I have not experienced before I have been lucky my previous dogs delivered to hand from the very beginning.

 

All the best

Tim

[scotslad]

Probably the best advice would be to either get a 1-1 lesson join a club of if someone on here is near u would be easier to advise if actually see the problem.

 

I'd not advise the treat thing for retrieving/delivery i have tried it many years ago before i knew better and dog spat dummy at feet wanting it's treat, but i'm sure it can be done if u know wot ur doing, as u could try clicker training also but not really my thing

 

If u position ur self in a retrieving corridor or field corner so atleast dog could not do the big circle thing. Which is not really ur problem

With dog not coming to u possibly throw dummy in garden away from kennel/run most dogs would want to runback to there kennel run with the dummy and praise him while dummy still in mouth, don't be in a hurry to take it off him

Would off thought walking away would help, otherwise could be the way u bend down to him, if bending at waist straight legged u will almost overshadow/intimidate and frighten dog, whereas if bend at knees down on ur hunches not as threatening/imposeing also turning body at 45 degrees will not be as intimidating to a dog

 

I would be tempted to teach retrieve in reverse like u tried to sitting dog down and teaching a hold command, not sure if u positioned urself different to stop him scratching u.

 

A decnt trainer could probably look at the problem and give u 2 or 3 things to try straight away that u can work on

[Mr. Merkel]

Scotsland,

Thanks for your reply Ive already arranged to see a trainer and have tried what you suggested about positioning in a corner, that has been my MO for the last couple weeks, returning straight to me was not an issue its the last 2 feet he will come forward and touch my hand then pull back snorting and grunting repeatedly, I am sure its a game to him but I cannot find a way to get him to deliver to hand first time.

Ive walked away from him called him to heel and tried to take the dummy while he is at heel, no joy, if I ignore him and just let him have the dummy he will follow me about touching my leg as soon as I lean down to take it the grunting starts, Ive tried sitting on the grass standing in a shallow lake coming straight to me is again not the issue its the hand over, another issue that I have failed to mention is that he will not sit on the whistle with the dummy in his mouth, Ive run out of ideas hence posting a request on this forum.

Hopefully I will overcome this shortly and we can move on.

Thanks to everyone again.

Tim

[PERCE]

What's he like in a passage way or a hall? Did you make everything you've done with the dog a big game prior to regimenting & making it all formal?

[Daany]

Personally wouldn't use treats, when treating a dog you dogs is working for food and not because it trying to please you, couple off options is when the dog is coming back in turn ur back and walk away it will follow you then turn around and say dead wile taking it off the dog wile walking away if you use the command hold the dog should get used to holding it for you and droping it In to your hand when told to. 1more way is to find a ally way and do straight forward retrieves up and down, this way your dog has no other way to go but strait bk to you, possible try geting down on 1 knee for a start but don't look them in the eye this can be seen as a threat, always take the dummie from under and don't go over there head, all these little things can stop a dog coming strait In .

[scotslad]

Depending on dogs temperment, it sounds a keen retriever with dummy and u say recall is not bad perhaps change tone off voice, if trying to encourage a timid dog higher pitch, but possibly in ur case lower pitch almost ####ing it telling it to stop mucking about and come in but i if i/u have misread the dog could make it worse. My old lab went throu a similar phase, mucking about and occasion pee/mark and i would just 'OI' him but praise as soon as he started back towards me and plenty of fuss with dummy still in mouth

 

Never really seen a dog sit to stop whistle while in middle off a retreive, never tried it (doubt any off mine would) and never seen better trainers do it either, way out yes, not way back. Can see no need for it in practice and could confuse a dog

 

There is good advice above and pretty much every base is covered but i'd just wait until someone actually see's ur dog in person, i'd guess the trainer will use 1 or some off above methods just depends which is most suitable for u and dog. Don't hthink it'll take much to sort it

[Millomite]

Scotslad

 

WRT stopping with a retrieve in its mouth. It's useful to have a dog which will spit dead game out on command/stop whistle to redirect for another wounded bird

[scotslad]

I can sort of see wot ur saying in theory, but in all the years i've been involved in shooting/dogs i've never needed to or wished my dog would stop, drop and go somewhere else. There are many things i'd wish my dogs would/wouldn't or do better but that it not 1 off them.

 

Obviously u know wot ur doing but is there not a risk of confusing a dog and cause a spitting/dropping problem

 

Generally if i'm picking up i usually leave all dead birds till drives over and only send dogs for a runner so i have never relly been in a situation where that would be handy, althou hae had dogs lift a dead 1 on way to a runner which is wot ur on about but not very often.

In my case think more chance off confusing my dog and creating a problem

[Mr. Merkel]

Scotsland,

I possibly misled you with the stop whistle, I didn't try to stop him on the retrieve it was when he returned and was in front of me grunting with the dummy I tried the stop whistle to sit him to take the dummy, it didn't work and I did not try it again.

Tim

[Millomite]

I can sort of see wot ur saying in theory, but in all the years i've been involved in shooting/dogs i've never needed to or wished my dog would stop, drop and go somewhere else. There are many things i'd wish my dogs would/wouldn't or do better but that it not 1 off them.

 

Obviously u know wot ur doing but is there not a risk of confusing a dog and cause a spitting/dropping problem

 

Generally if i'm picking up i usually leave all dead birds till drives over and only send dogs for a runner so i have never relly been in a situation where that would be handy, althou hae had dogs lift a dead 1 on way to a runner which is wot ur on about but not very often.

In my case think more chance off confusing my dog and creating a problem

It's also a good tool to have if you're beating and your dog pegs a bird in cover for example, or for trialling when you can tell your dog is likely to peg a bird (eliminating fault) in cover to let it go. It's something I'm working on with one of mine at the moment

[PERCE]

Whilst it's a tool for a Trial dog to stop it pegging I don't think it really has much of a place on a real shoot. I'm yet to see a keeper complain about pegging in the beating line & I suspect the majority of stuff caught has some sort of problem anyway, clipped game from previous drives. I've also seen it cause a problem whilst picking up, I saw a Trial trained dog attempt to push out a wounded grouse. It was one of them one chance or it's gone picks but the Trial trained dog didn't grab it & the bird was gone, one leg down.