Billy. Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Then you are agnostic Billy, not atheist. atheism requires no proof nor does faith.. I see where you're going with that, but I am an atheist. I disbelieve the existence of a higher being. I wish I'd never picked up on with that other guy said now. My point is that no one can say "I know for a fact there is/isn't a God" as there's no hard evidence to support that claim. I get where you're going with the agnostic bit though. What I'm saying does cross that boundary, but that belief is that I am in the middle-ground with no confounding evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Always makes me giggle Part of the 'Jesus With You Always' set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 If it is only biological and relies on chemicals, why do so many people still feel that they have lost something so tangible many decades later? Sex, yes I can understand that as a biological/chemical process, not love. - Memories are also just biochemical/electrical reactions within body, all our feelings are. Just being pedantic, apart from people dressed in a suit or the statue in Dundee, no-one has seen Desperate Dan. - But people see god all the time do they? By calling me a pedant arent you now just doing what you criticise people on here for all the time, not considering their pov and being a little bit insulting? My apologies, it was me that was being pedantic. Your point of view is valid but flawed, many people saw Jesus (God in human form) no-one has seen Desperate Dan in the flesh. Whitey put forward the idea that he could only believe in something he could physically sense, therefore concepts are not to be believed, which is illogical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Henry... this is not aimed at you at all, please bear that in mind.. Guys... you should have realised by now it is IMPOSSIBLE to get ahead in an argument with a person of faith (see.. no insults!) The church (all of them) has had very intelligent chaps doing nothing but pondering the unexplainable and improvable and coming up with answers for it all their lives for thousands of years.. Do you honestly think that in the face of that, we lesser mortals could possibly, off the cuff, successfully rebut their reasoning and answers... It's a pointless exercise.. there is no way to win, indeed, there is no real way to get ones point across so I personally have just given up trying... I really haven't got the time or energy to expend on something that frankly means so little to me. If you need an example of what I mean here take creationists... Ask a creationist 'if the earth and everything on it was brought into existence less than 10,000 years ago, how do you explain the fossils of dinosaurs that we can accurately date to millions of years?" The stock answer you will receive is "that is God's way of testing our faith!" How can we compete with that?! simple answer is you can't so don't bother trying... religion has pondered the answers to every possible question for 2 thousand plus years and honed them into absolute beauties! And again... I refer you to Russell's Teapot! - http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Russell's_Teapot Edited May 24, 2013 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Jesus (God in human form) I never saw it that way until now. However, if that happened in this day and age, the person would be chucked in a psychiatric hospital. Is it not all a bit strange that these religions all started several thousand years ago and somewhere in a hot and dusty country? (not always, I'll admit) People laugh at Scientology, but it's someone making a religion and people following it - this is just something that's had longer to develop. The (observable) Universe which is 1026 Meters wide with more stars than grains of sand on this earth and God decides to turn up on our little rock ~13Bn years after creating the Universe in the form of a man and then disappeared off? I get the feeling the bible should have gone along the route of 'And on the seventh day, he sat back and thought "I'll let them work the rest out" ' Edited May 24, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Do people really need a book to tell them how to live their lives? I'm a good person and follow normal morals. 10 commandments: I am the Lord thy God - nope Thou shalt have no other gods before me - nope Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image - nope Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain - nope Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy - nope Honour thy father and thy mother - I don't need a book to tell me this and this has happened before Christianity existed. Thou shalt not kill - I don't need a book to tell me this and this has happened before Christianity existed. Thou shalt not commit adultery - I don't need a book to tell me this and this has happened before Christianity existed. Thou shalt not steal - I don't need a book to tell me this and this has happened before Christianity existed. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour - I don't need a book to tell me this and this has happened before Christianity existed. Seriously, don't steal, kill and respect your parents. What ground breaking rules! How did humans exist before it?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 My apologies, it was me that was being pedantic. Your point of view is valid but flawed, many people saw Jesus (God in human form) no-one has seen Desperate Dan in the flesh. Whitey put forward the idea that he could only believe in something he could physically sense, therefore concepts are not to be believed, which is illogical. No need for apologies mate, on the point about people seeing jesus that is probably fact based on historical evidence, however the fact that he was God in human form is more belief/faith related. By the way im not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, it would be a boring world if we all thought the same thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Henry... this is not aimed at you at all, please bear that in mind...I do....If you need an example of what I mean here take creationists... Ask a creationist 'if the earth and everything on it was brought into existence less than 10,000 years ago, how do you explain the fossils of dinosaurs that we can accurately date to millions of years?" The stock answer you will receive is "that is God's way of testing our faith!" How can we compete with that?! simple answer is you can't so don't bother trying... religion has pondered the answers to every possible question for 2 thousand plus years and honed them into absolute beauties! And again... I refer you to Russell's Teapot! - http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Russell's_Teapot Science has also added some problems of her own, here`s one... Different kinds of radioactive decay-based geological stopwatches run at different rates. The radiocarbon stopwatch buzzes round at a great rate, so fast that, after some thousands of years, its spring is almost wound down and the watch is no longer reliable. It is useful for dating organic material on the archaeological/historical timescale where we are dealing in hundreds or a few thousands of years, but it is no good for the evolutionary timescale where we are dealing in millions of years (Dawkins, 1986: p. 226) ...and another... In June of 1990, Hugh Miller submitted two dinosaur bone fragments to the Department of Geosciences at the University in Tucson, Arizona for carbon-14 analysis. One fragment was from an unidentified dinosaur. The other was from an Allosaurus excavated by James Hall near Grand Junction, Colorado in 1989. Miller submitted the samples without disclosing the identity of the bones. (Had the scientists known the samples actually were from dinosaurs, they would not have bothered dating them, since it is assumed dinosaurs lived millions of years ago—outside the limits of radiocarbon dating.) Interestingly, the C-14 analysis indicated that the bones were from 10,000-16,000 years old—a far cry from their alleged 60-million-year-old age (Dahmer, et al., 1990, pp. 371-374). We stand in an area where proof cannot be given and only faith, rational or not, is what it is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 ....... Seriously, don't steal, don`t kill and respect your parents. What ground breaking rules! How did humans exist before it?! At that time, and for sometime after throwing your first born into a fire was pretty much the norm. Romans and Greeks left babies out in the elements if they were not looked on favourably by the father. Retribution far above what was right was the norm and feuds and wars were common, until the Jews set up cities of refuge according to the laws given to Moses and these were for all. Minor crimes were settled by a system of elders in the city gates and jubilees (cycles of seven/49 years) were given to return slaves to their families and land to their previous owners. Lots of other stuff that the surrounding pagans did not do that we would consider ethically abhorrent today. This pagan worship was not just limited to the middle east, we have many Baal and Molech worship sites in Perthshire, some with evidence of sacrificial fires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillfrbs Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Science cannot prove or disprove God, fac kids belive in the tooth fairy father christmas,and the easter bunny when they are little ,but when they get older they work it out for them selfs what a load of **** we have been telling them,same goes for religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 dinosaurs rulled the earth millions of years before any so say god and mankind ,science has told us this FACT not religeon which is FICTION .why do you think there are so many different so say gods,because back in the start of time people did not travel the world like today.and belived in what was preached to by there peers. Few more scientific "facts" for you in the post above Neil, check it out, even Dawkins has serious doubts about science being totally accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 kids belive in the tooth fairy father christmas,and the easter bunny when they are little ,but when they get older they work it out for them selfs what a load of **** we have been telling them,same goes for religion. Save your apologies for your death bed ! easy to be brave when you still have lots of breathing to do but what about your last one or two ? you mark my words it will happen ! to me & to you too ! Twaddle will become hope or fear of the unknown in your case . Quote from Harry Patch the last WW1 Tommy who knew more about death than a lot of us " I do not believe dying is the end " & Harry Patch was no kid he was about 1001 when he said that ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 One does not have to be a practicing Christian to follow a Christian set of rules and lifestyle.. We all do that on a daily basis possibly without realising. Our laws, morals, social rules and norms, in fact the set of parameters that define how way we lead our lives are almost all derived or can be traced back to early Christianity and the bible.. So... Atheist, agnostic, devout believer... it matters not... we live a Christian lifestyle and that is the important point... it is irrelevant whether we have stepped into a church in the past. I do not believe in God per se but I would still class my self as Christian just as I would class myself as British. Spot on... from Auntie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Few more scientific "facts" for you in the post above Neil, check it out, even Dawkins has serious doubts about science being totally accurate. You are allowed to challenge findings, in fact, it's encouraged. That's what science is always doing and that is how we progress. If you challenge the bible, or even worse, the Kur'an you're not often met with smiles and encouragement. Edited May 24, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) One does not have to be a practicing Christian to follow a Christian set of rules and lifestyle.. We all do that on a daily basis possibly without realising. Our laws, morals, social rules and norms, in fact the set of parameters that define how way we lead our lives are almost all derived or can be traced back to early Christianity and the bible.. So... Atheist, agnostic, devout believer... it matters not... we live a Christian lifestyle and that is the important point... it is irrelevant whether we have stepped into a church in the past. I do not believe in God per se but I would still class my self as Christian just as I would class myself as British. Well said Vipa. As said before, I'm not a believer, but I believe I live my life as a decent person, with decent morals and values. I don't need to pray to an unseen being to make me like that. Last time I went to church was for my best mate's (catholic) wedding. It struck me that we were all subjected to an hour of how lowly and unworthy we all were and if we didn't metaphorically wriggle on our bellies across the floor pleading for forgiveness, we would not be accepted into heaven. What sort of teaching is that? I don't consider myself unworthy or lowly, so to pray to someone/something that DOES think I'm that bad doesn't bear consideration. Before any of you jump on me about MY PERSONAL VIEWS - Don't. It doesn't matter enough to me to warrant debate. Thanks. Edited May 24, 2013 by walshie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Do be careful... To say 'There is no God' means you have proof. Whilst I am atheist, I can't go around chanting that it's a fact that there's no higher being. Well said Billy but that clearly puts you in the agnostic camp . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) surely if christians want more followers christians should not be working or shopping on sundays because by doing so it encourages shops to make workers go to work instead of to church? makes you think wonder how many christians there are in pc world instead of preying.i dont think many jewish businesses open on a saturday and i believe followers dont do anything else but prey they seem keener on preserving their religious day. i think the way the world is moving on will make the old ways harder to follow even if you wanted to. Edited May 24, 2013 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) It is disappearing though. Look at pretty much every developed country which has western European style structure and philosophy; religion in all of them is becoming far less significant to their inhabitants than it was only in relatively recent history. Fifty years ago the majority of people in this country were believers and church goers, now very few are. The same is largely true of most of the rest of Europe. Just because a lack of religion might leave a vaccuum doesn't mean it will be filled with more religion. Most of it has probably been filled with sport, watching telly, pubs, X-boxes, etc. All things which are far better, in my view, than wasting most of your life believing fairy stories. J. I think not Johnathan L Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe its not in decline ! & I got a bit of a shock yesterday when I went on FB & saw a post from a girl I was at school with who is a white British born & bred girl only to see her say that her son & daughter in law are now Muslim converts ! & it dose not end there because my nephew also converted to Islam some years ago . Some where on here was the usual bumpkin comment that said its for the week minded the gullible ect ! well my nephew finished Cambridge with honors & I would not call him week minded or gullible or easily led ! . Edited May 24, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Well said Billy but that clearly puts you in the agnostic camp . . Maybe I'm closet agnostic and don't know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillfrbs Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Save your apologies for your death bed ! easy to be brave when you still have lots of breathing to do but what about your last one or two ? you mark my words it will happen ! to me & to you too ! Twaddle will become hope or fear of the unknown in your case . Quote from Harry Patch the last WW1 Tommy who knew more about death than a lot of us " I do not believe dying is the end " & Harry Patch was no kid he was about 1001 when he said that ! that is because he was old school and a religeous man,my grandfather said the same thing,on his death bed he was 97,when your lights go out thats it ,get on with living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Quote from Harry Patch the last WW1 Tommy who knew more about death than a lot of us " I do not believe dying is the end " & Harry Patch was no kid he was about 1001 when he said that ! Scratched into the wall of the Mauthausen-Gusen Concentration Camp. (Translated) "If there is a God, he will have to beg for my forgiveness." I'm sorry, but if that doesn't send a shiver down your spine, then I don't know what would. All the suffering in the world just lends a hand to the point that we are on our own and no one to protect us. Edited May 24, 2013 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Save your apologies for your death bed ! easy to be brave when you still have lots of breathing to do but what about your last one or two ? you mark my words it will happen ! to me & to you too ! Twaddle will become hope or fear of the unknown in your case . I have been there a couple of times,and seen a mate die,funny his last words were not for God or his mum. I have two doctors a nurse and my wife who will testify as i went very white and my blood pressure went off the scale,as i was slipping into nothingness my last word was similar to the sound a chicken makes,no cry for God or Mum,in reality not many call out for either it is just a myth portrayed by hollywood and used by christians. I don't mind if you have religion in your life,see my earlier post about my wife,but please don't try and justify your beliefs to me i don't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Save your apologies for your death bed ! easy to be brave when you still have lots of breathing to do but what about your last one or two ? you mark my words it will happen ! to me & to you too ! Twaddle will become hope or fear of the unknown in your case . Quote from Harry Patch the last WW1 Tommy who knew more about death than a lot of us " I do not believe dying is the end " & Harry Patch was no kid he was about 1001 when he said that ! I've seen 2 parents and 2 grandparents die, and none of them got suddenly religious before they died. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. I respect theirs. They should respect mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordieh Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) It is disappearing though. Look at pretty much every developed country which has western European style structure and philosophy; religion in all of them is becoming far less significant to their inhabitants than it was only in relatively recent history. Fifty years ago the majority of people in this country were believers and church goers, now very few are. The same is largely true of most of the rest of Europe. Just because a lack of religion might leave a vaccuum doesn't mean it will be filled with more religion. Most of it has probably been filled with sport, watching telly, pubs, X-boxes, etc. All things which are far better, in my view, than wasting most of your life believing fairy stories. J. Hi All Sport and pubs are fine,but x-boxes and telly, I would rather go to church Geordie Edited May 24, 2013 by geordieh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) I have been there a couple of times,and seen a mate die,funny his last words were not for God or his mum. I have two doctors a nurse and my wife who will testify as i went very white and my blood pressure went off the scale,as i was slipping into nothingness my last word was similar to the sound a chicken makes,no cry for God or Mum,in reality not many call out for either it is just a myth portrayed by hollywood and used by christians. I don't mind if you have religion in your life,see my earlier post about my wife,but please don't try and justify your beliefs to me i don't care. Same here welsh 1 but for heavens sake do we have an answer ??? this will go on & on & on but I don't believe death is the end ! & if it was then life has made no sense what so ever ! & surly every thing must make sense in the end ? . All we can do when death smiles at us is smile back ! & hope! just as you will do ? well who wants to die ! . Well after all its very bad for ones health ! like a condition of of moulding flesh ect & its permanent & there is no known cure ! only death ! . Frightened ! ? Edited May 24, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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