COuntryfile article on lead shot and ammunition

[David BASC]

Yes further research into shooters knowledge and understanding and acceptance of the laws is needed I agree, and especially aimed at the inland shooters.

 

I repeat, it is not a case of me or BASC ignoring what some have said about lobbying for a change in the law, I have a lot of empathy for the ‘single UK wide law’ approach.

 

But as I have said before, we are in a very weak position to suggest changing the law, let alone keeping lead shot, if we can’t show we can comply with the current laws.

 

That’s is why ALL the main shooting associations, the and thus far as far as I know all the shooting press, the CLA, the GFA, the cartridge manufactures and so on are all behind the drive for compliance.

 

David

 

 

[sitsinhedges]

Reading the last few pages and as a BASC member I have to wonder if we are being set up here.

 

I hope not because losing lead shot is one of the few red lines that would have me leaving BASC forever.

 

Using compliance of a bad law as an excuse to justify banning something is bogus in the extreme but I get the impression that BASC are going to try taking us down that road.

[David BASC]

If you know you are going to be on the ducks what’s the problem putting the correct cartridges in?

 

If a duck comes through the line unexpectedly, where is the hardship in not shooting it if you only have lead in?

 

The law is easy enough to comply with, and there are no excuses for ignoring the law, all the associations are of exactly the same mind on this.

 

The law is clear, and is easy to follow - but some flat refuse to do so - that is not BASCs or any other organisations fault.

 

We have said time and time again that if people fail to comply with the law ,this will almost certainly result in further restrictions on lead shot - if some refuse to accept this, that is not BASC's or any other organisations fault.

 

If lead does go because some fools fail to toe the line then that is not BASC's or any other organisations fault.

 

So the bottom line is pretty simple; if people keep ignoring the law, regardless of what system we shoot under, then lead shot will go, so let’s stand together and all comply with the law.

 

David

 

 

[scotslad]

While i can see exactly wot the majority are pushing for a law more similar to the scottish version, which does make sense, but if u have to go for an open vote in parliment and anything could happen. When these 'anti' 'conservation' bodies get there PR machine going, which is massively funded and well organised, coupled with the fact they are very happy to put out misleading info or half truths to tabliod press/bbc as it makes a better story. we wouldn't stand a chance, look at the hunting ban

 

If i was a betting man i would be laying the odd's on the 'anti's' with either lead being banned altoegther or the 'wetlands' being widened so that many pheassant drives might have to be shot using non toxic, so u might end up having to have 2 cartridge bags full of shells and depending on the drive or peg u may have to shoot NT wether pheasant or fowl as wetland dependent, which also makes sense but would impact massively on shooters

 

I don't think it's a massive hardship not to shoot at the odd duck in a mixed drive, but if u either lose lead altogether or for complete drives u really would have something to moan about

Edited July 12, 2013 by scotslad

[sitsinhedges]

If you know you are going to be on the ducks what’s the problem putting the correct cartridges in?

 

If a duck comes through the line unexpectedly, where is the hardship in not shooting it if you only have lead in?

 

The law is easy enough to comply with, and there are no excuses for ignoring the law, all the associations are of exactly the same mind on this.

 

The law is clear, and is easy to follow - but some flat refuse to do so - that is not BASCs or any other organisations fault.

 

We have said time and time again that if people fail to comply with the law ,this will almost certainly result in further restrictions on lead shot - if some refuse to accept this, that is not BASC's or any other organisations fault.

 

If lead does go because some fools fail to toe the line then that is not BASC's or any other organisations fault.

 

So the bottom line is pretty simple; if people keep ignoring the law, regardless of what system we shoot under, then lead shot will go, so let’s stand together and all comply with the law.

 

David

 

 

You seem to be twisting the issue and setting us up for a fall. No-one said we should ignore the law but you seem to be setting up shooters for the blame on something that appears to be a foregone conclusion.

 

Strange how you suddenly believe everyone is breaking the law all of a sudden. I'm certainly not. If I shoot at a duck it costs me about £1.50 a pop for the ITM.

 

What exactly am I supposed to shoot thru my moderated gun that needs subsonic ammo to function?

[David BASC]

I am not trying to twist anything, there is no benefit what so ever in my doing so.

 

There is no foregone conclusion - as I have said before, far from it.

 

BASC is certainly not trying to take shooters down the road, or set up shooters as you put it - why on earth would we? Remember this is not only a BASC project - but a cross organisational project.

 

Nor have I ever said that everyone is breaking the law ,I find it sad that you seem to infer that I have, or maybe I misunderstood you - if so sorry... However, if some shooters do ignore the law , then we will ALL be in big trouble.

 

Please remember , this is the view of all the shooting organisations, and the shooting media etc. Which is why we are all pushing for all shooters to do what you and I and I suspect the majority of shooters do - and push for ALL shooters to stick to the law.

 

I cannot answer your question about the semi auto, I don't claim to be a cartridge expert, and I am not trying to dodge the question, but surely having a chat with the manufacture will help you?

 

Turning to changes in the law - I just want to be very sure I understand what some of you are asking for . Given that if we got the law changed to the Scottish system, and this meant that all wetlands under RAMSAR definition cannot be shot into or over with lead. Consequently in return for shooting duck and geese inland with lead shot, you want BASC to lobby to add significantly to the existing list of land in England and Wales where lead cannot be used for any form of shooting?

 

David

[DerbyshireDale.]

Country file on now will have a piece on lead shot and ammunition

I dont know of any "wildfowlers" who shoot that many birds that they are able to supply a game dealer, most fowlers think themselves lucky with just a single bird at the end of the flight and are well chuffed to go home with it...its never been about numbers!....so the basc survey should'nt really have included wildfowlers.....most syndicates, driven shoots etc, need to sell the bag to get some income return back for the next season....wildfowlers dont!...plus the fact that it is an offence to offer "wild geese" for sale....sometimes it makes sense to stand alone and not go down with the ship!...........the researchers should have asked the game dealers what percentage of their game and fowl was from "private shoots" as opposed to " wildfowlers"...we all know what the answer would be!....we dont want the "total lead shot Ban"...but we dont all need to be tarred with the same brush...game shoots need to put their house in order like the "wildfowlers" have already done!

[wymberley]

I hope by now, David, that you've gone home to the good lady and are sharing a bottle of something refreshing.

 

Then, after the weekend and fully rejuvenated, you might give the WWT a bell and ask them what the hell they're on about.

 

I refer to the final sentence in, "What Are The Barriers Of Replacing Lead With NTS" which is a sub heading in their, "Conservation Policy Briefing On Lead" which can be found on their website. There IS a barrier and it relates to thousands of guns whose owners either inherited them or bought them before this current situation arose. These guns are not necessarily used for wildfowling and cannot accept steel which the WWT rightly suggests is economic and for many owners the price of the alternatives is prohibitive. Consequently, we should inform them to think hard before they suggest any total ban on lead. Not least because if they get their way someone somewhere is going to be highly hissed off with them when they (someone somewhere) gets hit with an almighty compensation claim for loss, the cause of which had nothing whatsoever to do with the claimants.

 

It is a fact that the more you have, the harder you fight to keep it. Now, it may be possible to shrug off a couple of belligerent PWers, but a slack handful of plutocratic Purdey owners joining forces will not be quite so easy to fob off.

[scotslad]

But there lies the whole problem, wymberly.

The various anti's or alleged conservation bodies don't really give a stuff about the any alleged affects of lead shot, they just want to ban it to get 1 over the shooters and make it harder and harder for commercial driven shooting to continue.

That's their goal and they will use any way they can to try and bring that about.

 

Wot ever Basc or any other org says do u think they really care? Or the results off any research that does not go their way will be ignored and discredited untill they find some they agree with which will be shouted from the roof tops as fact.

They will continue to work behind the scenes bad mouthing lead and doing everything they can to either disrupt of end shooting that is there goal, nothing else, the lead issue is just a handy way off impacting on shooting

 

I wonder wot wot Sir peter Scott thinks about his charities actions/views? As he was a keen fowler

[wymberley]

And artist. By coincidence his name cropped up in conversation this week. It's closed now, but when there was an RAF Newton near Nottingham, the Sgts Mess had corridors full of his paintings. We were wondering what happened to them.

[Penelope]

And I reckon that's about the sum of it.

 

But there lies the whole problem, wymberly.

The various anti's or alleged conservation bodies don't really give a stuff about the any alleged affects of lead shot, they just want to ban it to get 1 over the shooters and make it harder and harder for commercial driven shooting to continue.

That's their goal and they will use any way they can to try and bring that about.

 

Wot ever Basc or any other org says do u think they really care? Or the results off any research that does not go their way will be ignored and discredited untill they find some they agree with which will be shouted from the roof tops as fact.

They will continue to work behind the scenes bad mouthing lead and doing everything they can to either disrupt of end shooting that is there goal, nothing else, the lead issue is just a handy way off impacting on shooting

 

I wonder wot wot Sir peter Scott thinks about his charities actions/views? As he was a keen fowler

[Pole Star]

And I reckon that's about the sum of it.

 

Scotslad & Penelope you have hit the nail right on the head & I could not agree more ! I remember the LACS put an anti gun add in the Mirror news paper I think it was ,in which they said " How many more tons of toxic lead must be spread over our country side " among all the usual bile from them & that must have been well over 20years ago. The anti lead campaign by the antis started a long time ago so is nothing new . Dose anyone know if the lead levels on the WW1 battle fields of France & Belgium were ever tested & what effects it has had on the wild life & people who live there are ? .

[wymberley]

Now come off it, PS. You're supposed to play by the rules which means you're not supposed to ask sensible questions.

 

But I will just draw your attention to the second sentence of the post (scotslad) that you refer to for the only possible answer.

[Pole Star]

Well I think if the lead levels on the Somme , Flanders , Passion Dale, Verdun ,ect ect were tested we would all of course be very surprised to find enormous levels of lead that are so horrendous that no living thing could possibly survive !!! , but for some unknown to science reason humans & wild life flourish ! , its most odd .

 

ps an old wildfowling & shooting friend in Ireland once said to me " Iv'e been eating it for years & its never done me any harm "

Edited July 13, 2013 by Pole Star

[David BASC]

Wymberley,

 

To answer your point about steel and older guns, there are two types of steel shot cartridges: Standard Steel and High Performance Steel.

 

Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke. But not Damascus barrels.

 

Standard steel runs at about 1395 fps max MV compared to high performance steel that run at 1410 fps max.

 

For traditional lightweight game guns, CIP recommends choke generally no greater than half while the British Proof Authorities recommend no more than quarter choke.

 

I understand that standard steel may not be widely available in the shorter cartridge at the moment – most probably as simple case of supply and demand. If demand for the shorter cartridge increased then I have no doubt the manufactures would up production to cater for that demand.

Edited July 13, 2013 by David BASC

[Pole Star]

Wymberley,

 

To answer your point about steel and older guns, there are two types of steel shot cartridges: Standard Steel and High Performance Steel.

 

Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke. But not Damascus barrels.

 

Standard steel runs at about 1395 fps max MV compared to high performance steel that run at 1410 fps max.

 

For traditional lightweight game guns, CIP recommends choke generally no greater than half while the British Proof Authorities recommend no more than quarter choke.

 

I understand that standard steel may not be widely available in the shorter cartridge at the moment – most probably as simple case of supply and demand. If demand for the shorter cartridge increased then I have no doubt the manufactures would up production to cater for that demand.

 

Thanks for that update David but I do wonder what I will put down the tubes of old double eight once my supply of Tungsten matrix has run out ? as I under stand it is no longer available & there is no way I will put steel down it . I hope TM will be available again soon , as for bismuth I brought a box 10 Eley 8g cartridges at the Game Fair some years ago & they cost me a whacking £30 ! & do you know what ? I never killed a single bird with then , I wont be using that stuff again .

ATB Pole Star

Edited July 13, 2013 by Pole Star

[Guest cookoff013]

Wymberley,

 

To answer your point about steel and older guns, there are two types of steel shot cartridges: Standard Steel and High Performance Steel.

 

Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke. But not Damascus barrels.

 

Standard steel runs at about 1395 fps max MV compared to high performance steel that run at 1410 fps max.

 

For traditional lightweight game guns, CIP recommends choke generally no greater than half while the British Proof Authorities recommend no more than quarter choke.

 

I understand that standard steel may not be widely available in the shorter cartridge at the moment – most probably as simple case of supply and demand. If demand for the shorter cartridge increased then I have no doubt the manufactures would up production to cater for that demand.

 

spot on all that extra pressure of upto 1050 bar for HP cartridges just to get theoretical 50fps more. not ideal.

however, if you are smart you`d reload something like 32g of #2 steel, even tat 1400fps its going to do something. that can easily be achieved by standard powders, A0 for example.

 

the cartridges, should be better than most factory, and in the right shotsize. ie, DRT @ 35 yards. shooting 3" at ducks can be done. just as easily as 2.75" s.

 

the cip recomends no more than .5mm choke for steel while other bodys recoment 1/4 choke or less. personally alot can be achieved from CYL and SK.but different guns do different things.

 

@polestar.

buy niceshot, its tungsten based nontoxic, loads like lead, shoots like lead, barrel safe, fibre safe.

[Guest cookoff013]

You seem to be twisting the issue and setting us up for a fall. No-one said we should ignore the law but you seem to be setting up shooters for the blame on something that appears to be a foregone conclusion.

 

Strange how you suddenly believe everyone is breaking the law all of a sudden. I'm certainly not. If I shoot at a duck it costs me about £1.50 a pop for the ITM.

 

What exactly am I supposed to shoot thru my moderated gun that needs subsonic ammo to function?

 

load niceshot? just like lead?

SITS, no-one needs for subsonic ammunition. the classification for nontoxic is only nontoxic. it doesnt have to be effective or upto the job. the law is clear on that..

[Pole Star]

 

spot on all that extra pressure of upto 1050 bar for HP cartridges just to get theoretical 50fps more. not ideal.

however, if you are smart you`d reload something like 32g of #2 steel, even tat 1400fps its going to do something. that can easily be achieved by standard powders, A0 for example.

 

the cartridges, should be better than most factory, and in the right shotsize. ie, DRT @ 35 yards. shooting 3" at ducks can be done. just as easily as 2.75" s.

 

the cip recomends no more than .5mm choke for steel while other bodys recoment 1/4 choke or less. personally alot can be achieved from CYL and SK.but different guns do different things.

 

@polestar.

buy niceshot, its tungsten based nontoxic, loads like lead, shoots like lead, barrel safe, fibre safe.

 

Thanks Cookoff I will look into it but where can you buy it ?

[Guest cookoff013]

clay game.

its expensive but you can shoot.

[sitsinhedges]

 

load niceshot? just like lead?

SITS, no-one needs for subsonic ammunition. the classification for nontoxic is only nontoxic. it doesnt have to be effective or upto the job. the law is clear on that..

 

Niceshot at £73/kilo

[roughshooter]

 

Niceshot at £73/kilo

Ouch!!!!! I am hearing that even niceshot should be used with a fully enclosed wad now???

[Guest cookoff013]

its as hard as high antimony lead.

 

i havent heard about the enclosed wad bit. but most american loads will be plastic. only the BP guys use fibre.

[Pole Star]

 

Niceshot at £73/kilo

 

Thank God its only for over wet land here or trips south over the border & special occasions but over grass up here I will still be using lead in the 8bore & I hope there will be no change in the law in Scotland .

 

 

ps Lead is good for us inasmuch it puts meat on the table or perhaps no one ever noticed

Edited July 13, 2013 by Pole Star

[Bazooka Joe]

BJ is just the latest to say it but attempting to change the law does seem to have merit amongst PWers and BJ also gives another advantage of this in as much as it steals the WWT's thunder.

 

 

Lets say Wymberley if the law was the same as Scotland we wouldn't be having this compliance issue as it couldn't be tested using the current methods.

 

 

One of the ways for BASC to achieve this is to lobby to get a sensible law in place that shooters see as logical, in that it addresses the ingestion issue at the heart of the law.

 

 

Thanks for the reply David, but I have to disagree.

 

The way forward in my eyes is to meet this head on & lobby for a change in the law, to make it in line with the sensible law that is in place in Scotland.

 

Maybe a trip down to the Holland & Holland Clay ground for a corporate day out is in order...

 

Taking the advantage way from the anti's at every given choice is the solution