Penelope Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I got a rollocking at a clay shoot for lifting the stock to the barrels that were pointed at the floor. It was how I was taught from an early age. As for the 3 shots - you wont get four birds, seen this with a loader and a pair of s/s ejectors, its a non starter on amount fired / killed. As for broken gun being safe that's a crock, fall and they can still go off, slam the barrels to the stock and the sears can let go perhaps adding a beater to the bag. you will find it hard to load a semi without it pointing skywards or the deck. It seems that closing guns barrels pointed at the floor has been forgotten these days. Neither the semi or break action can be seen safe - the only safe gun is one seen and proven UNLOADED. It is tradition and yes a little snobbery, just like stack barrels being frowned on it will disappear in time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Its the people who are dangerous not the guns so to speak. Folk say a SXS or OU is safer WHEN broken and UNLOADED, but this is the problem so may times, users not breaking the gun and removing cartidges and i am sure most SXS users dont have auto saftey`s and i know most dont on the shoot I beat on. And it doesnt matter what action gun someone has if they are taking low birds or have poor muzzle awearness. 10-15 shots of 30/32gram in a SXS leaves me feeling beaten and sore in the shoulder and not enjoyable, where as O/U is still a bit harsh the semi auto is a dream to shoot and comfortable so no flinching or bad mounting ! I for one would like to see the end of the predujdice towards semi autos and pumps, the americans use them loads for "upland" shooting with out problem, everyone has a responsibility to master the tool they are using and be able to opperate it safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Any gun should be in a slip between drives anyway, IMO. Read quote 17. Why did you get a rollocking for closing your gun the correct way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Its the people who are dangerous not the guns so to speak. Folk say a SXS or OU is safer WHEN broken and UNLOADED, but this is the problem so may times, users not breaking the gun and removing cartidges and i am sure most SXS users dont have auto saftey`s and i know most dont on the shoot I beat on. And it doesnt matter what action gun someone has if they are taking low birds or have poor muzzle awearness. 10-15 shots of 30/32gram in a SXS leaves me feeling beaten and sore in the shoulder and not enjoyable, where as O/U is still a bit harsh the semi auto is a dream to shoot and comfortable so no flinching or bad mounting ! I for one would like to see the end of the predujdice towards semi autos and pumps, the americans use them loads for "upland" shooting with out problem, everyone has a responsibility to master the tool they are using and be able to opperate it safely. Rubbish. The majority of SxS are auto safety, it's the OU designed for clay shooting that don't have auto safeties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I dislike auto safeties intensely.Anyone who relies on any safety mechanism to render their gun safe is an accident waiting to happen.'It's ok,the safeties on' isn't something I want to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I dislike auto safeties intensely.Anyone who relies on any safety mechanism to render their gun safe is an accident waiting to happen.'It's ok,the safeties on' isn't something I want to hear. My view 100% The number who say 'It's OK the safety's on ' makes my blood boil. I , also detest auto safeties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Actually from a safety point of view a semi is more safe, sxs and ou must be loaded barrel down and brought back up, and brought back up in front could inevitably be through the beating line at some point, brought back up behind could be through the pickers up, a semi stays pointing skywards at all times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Fundamentally though its down to the opperater ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraivi Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 At the end of the day it all comes down to safe weapon handling - something all shooters should have at the forefront of their minds. A comparison could be made with bolt action rifles and semi auto shotguns. Can one see a closed bolt or an action with a bolt removed? Should we now invest in break open or double rifles so they can be assessed as safe from a distance? Remember the old motto...There is no such thing as an unloaded gun! Treat every weapon as loaded. Never point the weapon at anything you dont intend to kill. If all shooters stuck to these gun handling basics, of which we are all aware then serious incidents would be avoided. Sadly, we have all seen it happening. I believe many newcomers and some people who participate in purely target sports both clay and rifle are not made fully aware of the destructive power a gunshot is capable of, particularly where soft biological tissues are involved. Watching clays being broken and holes being punched in paper dont portray the destructive energy involved. Unsafe weapon handling should never be tolerated and the offender should be dealt with severely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) Because any accidental discharge would have gone into the ground, and not down range. I always kinda figured that was the idea. Go figure. I can only assume that because it was a clay ground and that there was no chance of anyone or anything being down range that it was accepted practice there. I have seen more of the 'barrels up' closing of the gun at clay shoots/grounds than any game shoot. Read quote 17. Why did you get a rollocking for closing your gun the correct way? Edited September 23, 2013 by Penelope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsdad Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I got a rollocking at a clay shoot for lifting the stock to the barrels that were pointed at the floor. It was how I was taught from an early age. I have had the same stupid comment from a clay shooter that I should be bringing my barrels up not my stock, what a load of rubbish. I taught my (now) wife to close her gun properly ie stock up and if the muppet on the clay shoot doesn't like it then tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 That was from an instructor at a well known North West London ground. I have had the same stupid comment from a clay shooter that I should be bringing my barrels up not my stock, what a load of rubbish. I taught my (now) wife to close her gun properly ie stock up and if the muppet on the clay shoot doesn't like it then tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 At the end of the day it all comes down to safe weapon handling - something all shooters should have at the forefront of their minds. A comparison could be made with bolt action rifles and semi auto shotguns. Can one see a closed bolt or an action with a bolt removed? Should we now invest in break open or double rifles so they can be assessed as safe from a distance? Remember the old motto...There is no such thing as an unloaded gun! Treat every weapon as loaded. Never point the weapon at anything you dont intend to kill. If all shooters stuck to these gun handling basics, of which we are all aware then serious incidents would be avoided. Sadly, we have all seen it happening. I believe many newcomers and some people who participate in purely target sports both clay and rifle are not made fully aware of the destructive power a gunshot is capable of, particularly where soft biological tissues are involved. Watching clays being broken and holes being punched in paper dont portray the destructive energy involved. Unsafe weapon handling should never be tolerated and the offender should be dealt with severely. 100% correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 That was from an instructor at a well known North West London ground. Never shot clays but 2 keepers that I used to work alongside both shot for the Scottish national squad and they always closed there guns correctly, barrels down bringing the stock up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillfrbs Posted September 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 like has been said before ,I think semi autos are safer, as I load mine barrel pointing up ,and unload the same way,when moving from peg to peg, gun would be slipped unloaded with plastic flag.anyway if you want to be all traditional about it ,you should have a sxs .and 90% shoot over and under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I totally agree with everyone that it is the person behind the gun makes it safe or unsafe, but seen to many incidents off unsafe handling on shoots esp in more recent times, think (and this may be grossly unfair on many keepers) but some are more concerned about there tip/job than telling unsafe guns where to go, ie home. Think we are going to have to agree to disagree, there is no way i'd ever consider a semi to ever be safer than a break barrel gun. Really can't get my head round it. I traded mine in as i never felt comfortable or safe with it Fair enough if ur standing on a formal shoot or on a peg, i don't really have a major problem but i still like to be able to see a broken gun from a long distance. I do a fair bit off walked up shooting and there is no way i would want some one in the line carrying a semi, esp if going is a bit rough say a champed snipe bog or restock site. Yes i see wot ur saying about a broken gun not being 100% safe but it is safer than a semi, for a broken gun to go off u have to fall in such a way the barrels close, and also for the sears to fail, while that is possible ur thats 3 accidents to happen in a row. Surely a semi only needs a branch to catch trigger,(if safety not on) if u fall all it needs is the bang to go off, even a slight stumble could see the barrels pass in an unsafe direction Rifles are slighlty different in that u don't often get agroup of folk together with rifles (althou i dare say different at driven large game hunts) and its noramal practice to always show/hand rifle over with bolt open I remind all our guns at the start of season of butt to barrel, but possibly can see the logic on clay ground if large areas off hard standing around stands for richoccets for people standing around the stand, that just means people will learn that and then bring it into the game shooting field, i would imagine a larger and larger proportion of new shooters will come from the clays scene first. In fact before i joined my shoot they had one off the guns go off as he closed the barrels thankfully he brought butt up and shot went in a safe direction. The other thing that i was taught which i never see now is to break gun when half way out off slip, ie action just clear off the top with barrels still in slip and the oppisate when putting it away. Often see folk pull a closed gun out of a slip twirl it about a bit before opening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I totally agree with everyone that it is the person behind the gun makes it safe or unsafe, but seen to many incidents off unsafe handling on shoots esp in more recent times, think (and this may be grossly unfair on many keepers) but some are more concerned about there tip/job than telling unsafe guns where to go, ie home. Think we are going to have to agree to disagree, there is no way i'd ever consider a semi to ever be safer than a break barrel gun. Really can't get my head round it. I traded mine in as i never felt comfortable or safe with it Fair enough if ur standing on a formal shoot or on a peg, i don't really have a major problem but i still like to be able to see a broken gun from a long distance. I do a fair bit off walked up shooting and there is no way i would want some one in the line carrying a semi, esp if going is a bit rough say a champed snipe bog or restock site. Yes i see wot ur saying about a broken gun not being 100% safe but it is safer than a semi, for a broken gun to go off u have to fall in such a way the barrels close, and also for the sears to fail, while that is possible ur thats 3 accidents to happen in a row. Surely a semi only needs a branch to catch trigger,(if safety not on) if u fall all it needs is the bang to go off, even a slight stumble could see the barrels pass in an unsafe direction Rifles are slighlty different in that u don't often get agroup of folk together with rifles (althou i dare say different at driven large game hunts) and its noramal practice to always show/hand rifle over with bolt open I remind all our guns at the start of season of butt to barrel, but possibly can see the logic on clay ground if large areas off hard standing around stands for richoccets for people standing around the stand, that just means people will learn that and then bring it into the game shooting field, i would imagine a larger and larger proportion of new shooters will come from the clays scene first. In fact before i joined my shoot they had one off the guns go off as he closed the barrels thankfully he brought butt up and shot went in a safe direction. The other thing that i was taught which i never see now is to break gun when half way out off slip, ie action just clear off the top with barrels still in slip and the oppisate when putting it away. Often see folk pull a closed gun out of a slip twirl it about a bit before opening Yes it is but I know exactly where your coming from. As I said in an earlier post I have on numerous occasions in the past stopped drives to have a chat with unsafe guns most of which are from clay backgrounds and some have no idea about safety at all. I know for a fact it may reduce my tip but my life and my beaters lives seem to be worth a bit more. I also break my gun as it's coming out of it's slip and would have had a clout round the ear from my father or old head keeper if I hadn't. It's surprising how people watch you do this and ask why and look a bit bemused when you tell them usually saying something stupid like 'my gun isn't loaded so I don't need to worry about breaking as I'm getting my gun out'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Driven shooting is supposed to be a special day, a treat, a formal occasion. I hope nobody would turn up for a driven day in a tracksuit, same applies to the guns. It's about creating the right atmosphere and appearance, not about moaning about recoil or any of the other lame excuses for wanting to use a semi auto. Special occasions are enhanced by everyone joining in to the required standard. If you turned up at a wedding in jeans and a tshirt when a morning suit was the expectation you'd look ridiculous and spoil part of the day for everyone else who made an effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) I do exactly as you mention in the last line of your post, break the gun as soon as the action comes out of the slip, it's also easy and more efficient to remove the gun from the slip this way too. But I guess I was educated properly, had to carry my dad's broken and unloaded gun for two years before I was allowed even a shot in the air. As for closing the gun, I over exaggerate the stock to barrels by placing my right hand under the 'toe' and lifting. I totally agree with everyone that it is the person behind the gun makes it safe or unsafe, but seen to many incidents off unsafe handling on shoots esp in more recent times, think (and this may be grossly unfair on many keepers) but some are more concerned about there tip/job than telling unsafe guns where to go, ie home. Think we are going to have to agree to disagree, there is no way i'd ever consider a semi to ever be safer than a break barrel gun. Really can't get my head round it. I traded mine in as i never felt comfortable or safe with it Fair enough if ur standing on a formal shoot or on a peg, i don't really have a major problem but i still like to be able to see a broken gun from a long distance. I do a fair bit off walked up shooting and there is no way i would want some one in the line carrying a semi, esp if going is a bit rough say a champed snipe bog or restock site. Yes i see wot ur saying about a broken gun not being 100% safe but it is safer than a semi, for a broken gun to go off u have to fall in such a way the barrels close, and also for the sears to fail, while that is possible ur thats 3 accidents to happen in a row. Surely a semi only needs a branch to catch trigger,(if safety not on) if u fall all it needs is the bang to go off, even a slight stumble could see the barrels pass in an unsafe direction Rifles are slighlty different in that u don't often get agroup of folk together with rifles (althou i dare say different at driven large game hunts) and its noramal practice to always show/hand rifle over with bolt open I remind all our guns at the start of season of butt to barrel, but possibly can see the logic on clay ground if large areas off hard standing around stands for richoccets for people standing around the stand, that just means people will learn that and then bring it into the game shooting field, i would imagine a larger and larger proportion of new shooters will come from the clays scene first. In fact before i joined my shoot they had one off the guns go off as he closed the barrels thankfully he brought butt up and shot went in a safe direction. The other thing that i was taught which i never see now is to break gun when half way out off slip, ie action just clear off the top with barrels still in slip and the oppisate when putting it away. Often see folk pull a closed gun out of a slip twirl it about a bit before opening Edited September 24, 2013 by Penelope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) Driven shooting is supposed to be a special day, a treat, a formal occasion. I hope nobody would turn up for a driven day in a tracksuit, same applies to the guns. It's about creating the right atmosphere and appearance, not about moaning about recoil or any of the other lame excuses for wanting to use a semi auto. Special occasions are enhanced by everyone joining in to the required standard. If you turned up at a wedding in jeans and a tshirt when a morning suit was the expectation you'd look ridiculous and spoil part of the day for everyone else who made an effort. Yes it is a special day and as has been mentioned before, some people may only get this opportunity once or twice in there lifetime (saving very hard to do so) so why should they have to fork out on a gun that may be used only once or twice when they already have something such as a semi-auto that does exactly the same job. We have already gone into the pro's and con's of safety, practicality etc. As for lame excuses I think you are totally out of order on that one. Having been a gamekeeper for many years and shooting day in, day out I am now in the unfortunate position of having 6 damaged discs in my back, bone damage in my spine, arthritis and severe nerve damage (not caused by shooting) and have started using a semi-auto which I can tell you makes one hell of a difference with felt recoil. I do not like the semi-auto but it does mean my life is more comfortable. Edited September 24, 2013 by r1steele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 I may be old fashioned but shooting draws a lot on tradition - thats why SxS are the favoured weapon. Not much more than prejudice in that but prejudice reinforces custom and change tends to be slower. Also, when the UK made SxS it protected the industry so - no problem with it. These days on a 'special' day its good to 'play the part' - dress correctly (within reason) , number drives from right to left and all that, guns are part of that but o/u's have become very much an accepted part of the day. Auto's will slowly become accepted but not for the most expensive days where keeping tradition alive is part of the 'magic' of the day. We can all borrow guns when the need arises and practice a bit in advance. Safety is part of the argument but as has been said I've had SxS users affronted by the suggestion they arent safe and refusing to open a gun to confirm its unloaded. The broken barrel visual symbol is very strong and flags are easily forgotten. So, although I have all three types I use the o/u most times. I agree its sharing the day and to do that you do have to 'conform' to a degree. I dont like semis on shoots, it doesnt have the right feel to me but thats probably just personal prejudice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) I do a fair bit off walked up shooting and there is no way i would want some one in the line carrying a semi, esp if going is a bit rough say a champed snipe bog or restock site. Yes i see wot ur saying about a broken gun not being 100% safe but it is safer than a semi, for a broken gun to go off u have to fall in such a way the barrels close, and also for the sears to fail, while that is possible ur thats 3 accidents to happen in a row. Surely a semi only needs a branch to catch trigger,(if safety not on) if u fall all it needs is the bang to go off, even a slight stumble could see the barrels pass in an unsafe direction Who would consider (in their right mind) walking along with a shell in the chamber of a semi to be safe? I don't personally shoot with a semi but would think owners of them need to be credited with a little sense? Taking your above scenario, how many accidents would it take to retract the bolt sufficiently to eject the flag and chamber a shell, disengage the safety (not that they should be relied on) then pull the trigger? IMHO a shell should only be chambered by a walking gun when preparing to shoot, much the same as closing a gun ready to shoot. I would have said the main safety reason for not allowing semis would be that it is difficult for the shoot captain to tell whether a gun is loaded or not from more than a few feet away and that would be up to him/ her to decide. Edited September 24, 2013 by Dangerous Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Yes it is a special day and as has been mentioned before, some people may only get this opportunity once or twice in there lifetime (saving very hard to do so) so why should they have to fork out on a gun that may be used only once or twice when they already have something such as a semi-auto that does exactly the same job. We have already gone into the pro's and con's of safety, practicality etc. As for lame excuses I think you are totally out of order on that one. Having been a gamekeeper for many years and shooting day in, day out I am now in the unfortunate position of having 6 damaged discs in my back, bone damage in my spine, arthritis and severe nerve damage (not caused by shooting) and have started using a semi-auto which I can tell you makes one hell of a difference with felt recoil. I do not like the semi-auto but it does mean my life is more comfortable. If people have scrimped and saved to buy a day of driven shooting they're even more likely to have or get a gun suitable for such a special day, just as they are to have bought appropriate clothing for the day. As you can get a perfectly good SXS for £100 on gunwatch, it's hardly going to be a barrier if you're prepared to spend £500+ on a days shooting. Sorry to hear that you're so crippled. If you were going on a driven day, and were physically capable of standing and shooting for the day light, soft shooting cartridges through an appropriate gun would serve you perfectly well for the occasional day I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 If people have scrimped and saved to buy a day of driven shooting they're even more likely to have or get a gun suitable for such a special day, just as they are to have bought appropriate clothing for the day. As you can get a perfectly good SXS for £100 on gunwatch, it's hardly going to be a barrier if you're prepared to spend £500+ on a days shooting. Sorry to hear that you're so crippled. If you were going on a driven day, and were physically capable of standing and shooting for the day light, soft shooting cartridges through an appropriate gun would serve you perfectly well for the occasional day I'm sure. Why should you have to spend that extra £100 when you have a perfectly capable gun that does the job. If you read my earlier posts you would see that I have keepered on places with nobility shooting and they even had guests using semi-auto's. They have more money than you could imagine but prefer semi-auto's as a 600-700 bird day with extremely high birds requiring heavy loads is hard going with a SxS. I am able to use a SxS but find a semi-auto (it doesn't make me a fan of them though) a lot easier going even with light loads which when you are in severe pain, every little helps. I have also said I'm not a huge fan of them used on driven days but at the end of the day it is down to the individual, not someone who thinks they know what is appropriate and what isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) Who would consider (in their right mind) walking along with a shell in the chamber of a semi to be safe? I don't personally shoot with a semi but would think owners of them need to be credited with a little sense? Taking your above scenario, how many accidents would it take to retract the bolt sufficiently to eject the flag and chamber a shell, disengage the safety (not that they should be relied on) then pull the trigger? IMHO a shell should only be chambered by a walking gun when preparing to shoot, much the same as closing a gun ready to shoot. I would have said the main safety reason for not allowing semis would be that it is difficult for the shoot captain to tell whether a gun is loaded or not from more than a few feet away and that would be up to him/ her to decide. That happens all the time, no different to a break barrell gun being carried closed,which also happens very regulary on say walked up game esp snipe or grouse or rabbit. Have u never watched a field trial most guns will be walking with there guns closed, but the massive advatage in my eyes is with a break barrel if u hit hard going u can open the gun, while not making it 100% completely safe it is reasonably safe Also most keepers when walking about checking traps etc will have 1 up the spout I think everyone one agrees it's not the gun but the person behind it makes it safe or not But i'd also say it is sport dependent, most who have done any ammount off beating/picking up will have seen poor/dangerous gun handling yet u rarely see that at the clays. But the fact is u would have to be a complete idiot to be unsafe at the clays. When ur in ur cage/stand u can do wotever u want with ur barrels no need to be muzzle aware as long as pointing down range. To shoot a low going away or crossing target it is normal to have ur gun almost mounted at a flat angle. Doing the same on a pheasant shoot would be very dangerous Bottom line the clays are a very safe sterile environment where it's very easy to be safe, when u go to a game shoot it's almost the oppisate and u have to be aware of a lot of different things, beaters in front, flankers other guns to sides pickers up behind as well as the possibilty of cables, roads or houses and where ur spent shot will fall Like almost everyone else on here i have seen unsafe gun handling on shoots, in my opinion the most common 1 is not breaking and emptying a gun to cross an obsticle, if people are so lazy the can't even break the barrel are they really going to go throu the effort to empty a semi, and that is my massive dislike for semi's on formal shoots comes from. And while many on here will say that should never happen (and ur right) but it does happen all too regulary in real life and if semi's became more common i think it would happen more often and be harder for anyone else to spot from a distance And while we should not have to lower ourselves to allow for the idiot factor, thee are a lot off idiots out there, allowing semi's on driven days with every tom d ick and harry using them would not be a good thing, and i may be old fashioned but i'm not a snob but i really feel there are more saftey issues with a semi that u simply don't have with a break barrel gun Like everything if ur a safe gun u will also be safe with a semi but unfortuntely not every gun is as safe as they should be and i think using a semi would make it worse and harder to pick up on Edited September 24, 2013 by scotslad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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