David Blunketts observations on the Roma

[old rooster]

Hmmm all interesting stuff, I think old Julius and his ilk would have had a remedy for some of today's problems within our society.

 

Might not have gone down too well with the liberals and lefties mind you!

 

Now if you want a really lovable old hector Caligula in his latter years has to be in there!!

[yates]

Religion does not come into it. It's all to do with cultural differences. Page Hall was, if you can believe it, cleaned up just prior to the cameras turning up. You have a group of people who culturally litter. Page has was knee deep in refuge because that's how the Roma live. The Roma culture is outside living, thus you get hordes of people who don't work loitering around with very little to do. These people are reliant on our state benefits which are primarily spent in the local betting shops and fast food establishments. The pakistani gangs are actually British asians who live in page Hall who are fed up with petty crime and drunken behavior. They also own most of the properties that the Roma live in.

[henry d]

Missed this little nugget...

 

 

The only fact is that human morality is absolutely not dependant on believing in some fantasy sky fairy. If you want your part of the world filled with more trash .....

 

If your morality stoops so low as to generalise that all Roma are trash then words do fail me.

[truflex]

So we just throw the things we don`t want into landfill instead of giving them to those who need.

 

The Roma people have not just come from Romania, they have come from all over Europe, they are a dispossessed people and everywhere they are discriminated against. At the moment they are coming here to sleep rough, cadge change and rake through rubbish for what they can use or sell, yeah a real christian country we are.

 

Sounds like trash to me.

[gemini52]

The door should have been bolted long ago i fear its to late now

[overandunder2012]

tell me its not going to be another bible thumping thread same old same old , but i guess we not had 1 for a while

[castletyne]

 

Apologies for the digression, but he did ask twice...

 

First thing, did Thucydides, Julius Caesar and Tacitus actually live, were they real people? (Links - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar ) Obvious answer is yes?

There are no original manuscripts about the above, yet we accept that they lived through the documents that exist, Thucydides lived 400yrs before Jesus walked on earth, yet we have @ 8 copies of his histories of which the earliest is dated around 900AD, 1300 years after they were first written and we know all about the Peloponessian war from these documents, no-one denies that he did not exist or that there were no wars in the 5c BC. Julius and Tacitus are similar, the earliest copies of histories written by them are @ 700-900 years after the event, again no-one denies their existence or the historical facts.

The earliest piece of manuscript we have of the NT dates back to @ 50years after they were written and rather than being one of a few copies, like Thucydides above, there are around 5 000 pieces of manuscript dating from within 200 years of the events and which back each other up. Lukes Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles were asked for by an unknown "Theophilus", probably a rich Roman, who wanted first hand knowledge of what happened to Jesus and others in 1st century Judea.

 

If, from the evidence above, you still say we have not proved Jesus existed in 1st century Judea, then we also have to throw in the bin the other authors and the histories that they wrote about.[/

 

Jesus probably did exist just like Caesar

 

But to say its a fact he was Christ the son of god is going a bit far

[Flashman]

"He wasn't the Messiah, he was a very naughty boy!"

 

And why was this thread sidetracked by cod-religious claptrap?

 

Back on subject, since the existing UK social infrastructure can't support those already here, it seems foolhardy to leave the front door open for yet more inward economic migration. An influx of cash-in-hand car-washers, farm labourers and navvies won't help the economy, as the money flows away without being taxed, while the benefits bill increases at the same time.

 

Unless it's all a cruel joke and we're bussing in highly trained professionals from Eastern Europe, which begs the question, "why is their home country such a dump if they're so brilliant?"

 

To argue otherwise is being done either to simply be provocative or by somebody without any grasp of economics - or by old-school Labourites who see it as a way of buying in votes before the next election.

[old rooster]

"He wasn't the Messiah, he was a very naughty boy!"

 

And why was this thread sidetracked by cod-religious claptrap?

 

Back on subject, since the existing UK social infrastructure can't support those already here, it seems foolhardy to leave the front door open for yet more inward economic migration. An influx of cash-in-hand car-washers, farm labourers and navvies won't help the economy, as the money flows away without being taxed, while the benefits bill increases at the same time.

 

Unless it's all a cruel joke and we're bussing in highly trained professionals from Eastern Europe, which begs the question, "why is their home country such a dump if they're so brilliant?"

 

To argue otherwise is being done either to simply be provocative or by somebody without any grasp of economics - or by old-school Labourites who see it as a way of buying in votes before the next election.

This is all very true, straightforward to understand so one can't help but keep wondering why any government would sanction it when the option to stop it within EU rules exists?

[Catweazle]

We need immigrants or we need our old people to start dying earlier, I know which I would prefer.

 

What we don't need are more criminals and spongers, so some kind of entrance criteria is essential. We should be offering opportunity to anyone who is prepared to work hard and abide by our laws.

[955i]

Apologies for the digression, but he did ask twice...

 

First thing, did Thucydides, Julius Caesar and Tacitus actually live, were they real people? (Links - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar ) Obvious answer is yes?

There are no original manuscripts about the above, yet we accept that they lived through the documents that exist, Thucydides lived 400yrs before Jesus walked on earth, yet we have @ 8 copies of his histories of which the earliest is dated around 900AD, 1300 years after they were first written and we know all about the Peloponessian war from these documents, no-one denies that he did not exist or that there were no wars in the 5c BC. Julius and Tacitus are similar, the earliest copies of histories written by them are @ 700-900 years after the event, again no-one denies their existence or the historical facts.

The earliest piece of manuscript we have of the NT dates back to @ 50years after they were written and rather than being one of a few copies, like Thucydides above, there are around 5 000 pieces of manuscript dating from within 200 years of the events and which back each other up. Lukes Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles were asked for by an unknown "Theophilus", probably a rich Roman, who wanted first hand knowledge of what happened to Jesus and others in 1st century Judea.

 

If, from the evidence above, you still say we have not proved Jesus existed in 1st century Judea, then we also have to throw in the bin the other authors and the histories that they wrote about.

But the only proof of Jesus is the bible, which is at best a mish-mash of other peoples ideas.

 

I have no doubt that there was someone called Jesus at that time, there are Mexican drug barons called that now.

 

Was he the son of god and a virgin birth, NO, he was just a bloke.

 

Could he turn water into wine and bread into flesh? Again I am afraid no.

 

Could he have just been a cool dude who thought it was OK to be nice to people, probably, but that's as far as it goes in my opinion

Edited November 18, 2013 by 955i

[Gimlet]

We need immigrants or we need our old people to start dying earlier, I know which I would prefer.

 

What we don't need are more criminals and spongers, so some kind of entrance criteria is essential. We should be offering opportunity to anyone who is prepared to work hard and abide by our laws.

 

And what happens when the immigrants grow old? This is illiterate economics. Mass migration within the EU and through the EU from beyond, is being orchestrated for political reasons to dissolve national identities and bring about a super-state by default. As hostility to this cultural vandalism, this sovietisation of a continent gathers pace amoung settled Europeans (its by no means just the British) the EU Commission has begun discussing opening its borders to all migration, particularly from Africa. The logic is simple: when the European population loses faith with "the project", change or augment that population to keep that project going. It is always easy to buy loyalty from the desperate.

The economic argument in Britain, as so far as there is one, is entirely false. It gets trotted out in an attempt to justify policies which the government no longer has the aurthority to control. We are told we need immigration for econmomic growth. We do not. Britain's econmic model is broken. We live wildly beyond our means. Government debt has reached astronomical levels is is rising steadily. Five million people are dependant on one form of welfare or another as a substitue for employment. A million of them are young people who have never worked, some of whom never will. Millions more in work are taxed to penuary and successfully bribed with their own money into believing that life would be insupportable without the all-controlling State which is ruining them. The Government would rather import a foreign population to replace that section of its own which it has discarded, continue paying the interest on its massive debts, proclaim and "increase" in new jobs and pretend that the real problem which it has neither the authority nor the guts to tackle does not exist. Not only does this leave the primary disease untreated it worsen it exponentially. But it will do for now, allowing the incumbent regime its moment in the sun and passing on a cumulative economic, cultural and social disaster to an unborn and unrepresented generation to deal with.

[old rooster]

 

And what happens when the immigrants grow old? This is illiterate economics. Mass migration within the EU and through the EU from beyond, is being orchestrated for political reasons to dissolve national identities and bring about a super-state by default. As hostility to this cultural vandalism, this sovietisation of a continent gathers pace amoung settled Europeans (its by no means just the British) the EU Commission has begun discussing opening its borders to all migration, particularly from Africa. The logic is simple: when the European population loses faith with "the project", change or augment that population to keep that project going. It is always easy to buy loyalty from the desperate.

The economic argument in Britain, as so far as there is one, is entirely false. It gets trotted out in an attempt to justify policies which the government no longer has the aurthority to control. We are told we need immigration for econmomic growth. We do not. Britain's econmic model is broken. We live wildly beyond our means. Government debt has reached astronomical levels is is rising steadily. Five million people are dependant on one form of welfare or another as a substitue for employment. A million of them are young people who have never worked, some of whom never will. Millions more in work are taxed to penuary and successfully bribed with their own money into believing that life would be insupportable without the all-controlling State which is ruining them. The Government would rather import a foreign population to replace that section of its own which it has discarded, continue paying the interest on its massive debts, proclaim and "increase" in new jobs and pretend that the real problem which it has neither the authority nor the guts to tackle does not exist. Not only does this leave the primary disease untreated it worsen it exponentially. But it will do for now, allowing the incumbent regime its moment in the sun and passing on a cumulative economic, cultural and social disaster to an unborn and unrepresented generation to deal with.

+1

[Catweazle]

 

And what happens when the immigrants grow old? This is illiterate economics. Mass migration within the EU and through the EU from beyond, is being orchestrated for political reasons to dissolve national identities and bring about a super-state by default. As hostility to this cultural vandalism, this sovietisation of a continent gathers pace amoung settled Europeans (its by no means just the British) the EU Commission has begun discussing opening its borders to all migration, particularly from Africa. The logic is simple: when the European population loses faith with "the project", change or augment that population to keep that project going. It is always easy to buy loyalty from the desperate.

The economic argument in Britain, as so far as there is one, is entirely false. It gets trotted out in an attempt to justify policies which the government no longer has the aurthority to control. We are told we need immigration for econmomic growth. We do not. Britain's econmic model is broken. We live wildly beyond our means. Government debt has reached astronomical levels is is rising steadily. Five million people are dependant on one form of welfare or another as a substitue for employment. A million of them are young people who have never worked, some of whom never will. Millions more in work are taxed to penuary and successfully bribed with their own money into believing that life would be insupportable without the all-controlling State which is ruining them. The Government would rather import a foreign population to replace that section of its own which it has discarded, continue paying the interest on its massive debts, proclaim and "increase" in new jobs and pretend that the real problem which it has neither the authority nor the guts to tackle does not exist. Not only does this leave the primary disease untreated it worsen it exponentially. But it will do for now, allowing the incumbent regime its moment in the sun and passing on a cumulative economic, cultural and social disaster to an unborn and unrepresented generation to deal with.

I can't disagree with you, what you have written is the reason I sold up everything in the south east and moved to a Welsh smallholding where I can ride out the storm. However, the only way the current ponzi scheme we call the welfare system can continue is by balancing the age demographics by bringing in more young workers. Long term recovery means bad tasting medicine for voters, which means no government will attempt it, hence that option is not available, we will continue to borrow and spend until we can't get any more credit then the able bodied migrants will leave and we will attempt to rebuild ourselves to third world status. We're stuffed.

[old rooster]

I can't disagree with you, what you have written is the reason I sold up everything in the south east and moved to a Welsh smallholding where I can ride out the storm. However, the only way the current ponzi scheme we call the welfare system can continue is by balancing the age demographics by bringing in more young workers. Long term recovery means bad tasting medicine for voters, which means no government will attempt it, hence that option is not available, we will continue to borrow and spend until we can't get any more credit then the able bodied migrants will leave and we will attempt to rebuild ourselves to third world status. We're stuffed.

 

We have an ample sufficiency of young potential workers here who are currently just becoming play station and x box experts. Gimlets comment about living beyond our means is spot on. That is only being propped up by ludicrous and long term unsustainable borrowing, which, once it stops, will see us in a similar position to some of the currently impoverished Eastern European countries.

 

It might be a bitter pill to swallow short to medium term but we just have to push the youngsters who currently elect not to work into employment, if that isn't done the problem just escalates as they become the next generation of parents, breeding yet more kids who will also eventually need employment.

 

Immigration into the UK needs to be based on the ability of the potential immigrant to do a specialised job that we don't have the resources to cover already, to bring in others to do menial, unskilled jobs while supporting a vast number of unemployed UK citizens can only ever end in disaster.

[joe soapy]

Think this has turned into one of the best threads so far..

One debate thats not being addressed is old people, and the ability to say enough is enough.

I have got no wish to be artificially kept alive long past my sell by date

[old rooster]

Think this has turned into one of the best threads so far..

One debate thats not being addressed is old people, and the ability to say enough is enough.

I have got no wish to be artificially kept alive long past my sell by date

 

Perhaps not directly relevant to the original points raised but definitely part of the overall situation we face economically.

 

Keeping people alive when they have no chance of any sort of enjoyable life beyond treatment is a very tricky one, probably worth another thread of its own. As far as the added potential cost of looking after an additional burden of old Roma's, many who will have made no contribution to our society that is another good reason to limit their numbers here surely?

[Catweazle]

 

We have an ample sufficiency of young potential workers here who are currently just becoming play station and x box experts. Gimlets comment about living beyond our means is spot on. That is only being propped up by ludicrous and long term unsustainable borrowing, which, once it stops, will see us in a similar position to some of the currently impoverished Eastern European countries.

 

It might be a bitter pill to swallow short to medium term but we just have to push the youngsters who currently elect not to work into employment, if that isn't done the problem just escalates as they become the next generation of parents, breeding yet more kids who will also eventually need employment.

 

Immigration into the UK needs to be based on the ability of the potential immigrant to do a specialised job that we don't have the resources to cover already, to bring in others to do menial, unskilled jobs while supporting a vast number of unemployed UK citizens can only ever end in disaster.

I agree, but the remedy will never happen unless the voting public can be convinced to vote themselves hard work and sacrifice. I don't think it's likely.

 

I wrote about the ponzi scheme welfare system, for the benefit of anyone who is not familiar with the "ponzi", it is a sham investment that pays early investors a return from the money invested by new members. Our welfare system is similar, we pay for the care of the old from the tax paid by the young, it needs an never increasing number of young tax payers or it will fold. All ponzi schemes eventually fold, leaving the late investors with nothing, that's why I'm not counting on ever having a state pension.

[spanj]

We need immigrants or we need our old people to start dying earlier, I know which I would prefer.

 

What we don't need are more criminals and spongers, so some kind of entrance criteria is essential. We should be offering opportunity to anyone who is prepared to work hard and abide by our laws.

work where ?

[Guest rimotu66]

So we just throw the things we don`t want into landfill instead of giving them to those who need.

 

The Roma people have not just come from Romania, they have come from all over Europe, they are a dispossessed people and everywhere they are discriminated against. At the moment they are coming here to sleep rough, cadge change and rake through rubbish for what they can use or sell, yeah a real christian country we are.

I'm an atheist mate, so I don't get the 'Christian country' statement, they are not coming here to sleep rough, cadge change etc, they are coming here because this country has turned into an island of lefty tree hugging do-gooders who have paved the way for them and others to rape our social hand out system.

 

Have you thought for one minute why they have been 'discriminated' against 'everywhere' ?

[Gimlet]

I agree, but the remedy will never happen unless the voting public can be convinced to vote themselves hard work and sacrifice. I don't think it's likely.

 

I wrote about the ponzi scheme welfare system, for the benefit of anyone who is not familiar with the "ponzi", it is a sham investment that pays early investors a return from the money invested by new members. Our welfare system is similar, we pay for the care of the old from the tax paid by the young, it needs an never increasing number of young tax payers or it will fold. All ponzi schemes eventually fold, leaving the late investors with nothing, that's why I'm not counting on ever having a state pension.

 

Our welfare system differs from a ponzi scheme in one key respect: the perpetrators, when their deeds catch up with them, retire from politics with a vast pension (unfunded, naturally) and a knighthood. In America, Bernie Madoff got 150 years in jail.