Frenchieboy Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I would not normally do this but I have been put in a position where I feel that I have no option. I was trying to zero my Lee Enfield yesterday with a pre-owned set of scopes, a set of Simmons White Tail Calssics bought from a PW member. When I fitted the scopes and tried to set them up with a lazer sighter the adjusters felt a little loose and gritty and not quite right to me. However I decided to give them a chance and try them out in case was wrong about them. The grouping was awful even at just 50 yards with the 6 bullets striking up to almost 12 inches apart and in all directions as shown on the first attached photo. I then took the scopes off as i was confident that it was the scopes that were defective and fitted my old reliable 8X56 scopes. The difference was unbelieveable. The shots grouped much better to about a 3 inch group - Not the best of grouping but the ammunition was not the best - See the second attached photo - And that target was shot at 100 yards and not the original 50 yards of the first target. As I have said I have to admit that the ammunition that I was using was not the best or consistently accurate ammunition (FNM 174g FMJ made in Portugal) but comparing the two targets would you be inclined to believe that the first set of scopes used were totally defective and that it would be reasonable of me to return them to the seller and demand a full refund. I will welcome your opinions guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flynny Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Ey up Pete, I'm sure the PW member will refund you mate, (there is some good uns on here) PM him and see what they say, ATB Flynny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted November 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Ey up Pete, I'm sure the PW member will refund you mate, (there is some good uns on here) PM him and see what they say, ATB Flynny I have spoken to him on the phone but we have parted on not so good terms! What is your opinion mate, would you say that the scopes are defective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 "Scopes" how many did you fit my rifle has a "scope" Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted November 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 "Scopes" how many did you fit my rifle has a "scope" Deershooter A figure of speech. I have always called/cassed them as them as a set of scopes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted November 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 (edited) Edit: I can't send them to you for testing as I have alread sent them for return to the seller. Plus they would need "testing" with a bit of recoil to show just how much the reticules are flying about! Edited November 18, 2013 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted November 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 "Simmons 3.5-10x50 WTC Philippines made" £85? As stated earlier (And please do not be ofended) and to give the seller a reasonable chance to put things right without any further messing about - : Not sure who you mean by "Mr. 22Hornet" mate, and to be honest I don't think I want to name him till he has had a chance to receive the scopes and make a refund (Without any messing about). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I have found better results from using a good quality scope on my centre fire rifle rather than asking too much from something not up for the task... If you intend to use it for what you stated in an earlier post then it is a lot of gun not to do it justice with a scope to match.... With the pickle you have on your lap the better glass might have been the route to take... TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cawdor118 Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I had a Simmons White tail classic on a .308 tikka t3 light years ago, they are probably good scopes for a low recoil gun, but for these high calibers they are as useful as a chocolate kettle. Is yours the one with the textured surface? Aluminium body? (I know this as the original mounts chewed it to bits). Do yourself a massive favour and buy a good set of mounts and a half decent scope that will group with these larger calibers. A Schmidt and Bender ended up on my tikka. Just my opinion though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Frenchie. If you want a semi decent scope, but dont have too much funds look at the MTC range. fairly good optics at reasonable prices. Failing that get a Schmit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 To be honest even the best scopes fail in some situations http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php/70258-300WM-killed-my-scope!!?highlight=300wm+killed+scope I killed a top draw S&B with recoil and then spent a week stalking stags with the same rifle topped with a £40 Nikko Stirling 8x50 with the paint worn off!! christened the rifle and spent a day shooting targets out to 300yds. must have put 60 rounds through it It performed faultlessly. it now wears a £70 Nikko Stirling in nicer condition which I also gave a pounding with 30 odd shots back to back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 french one, don't look at the MTC range just my opinion but a 2nd hand leupold will handle the recoil and not set you back as much as anything german Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cawdor118 Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Anything Zeiss, Leupold, Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce, Swarovski or Pecar should suffice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Anything Zeiss, Leupold, Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce, Swarovski or Pecar should suffice! go on french one, treat yourself, anything less just won't do the gun (or you) justice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I had a Simmons pro hunter (I think?) on my .243 it worked perfectly for the 2 years I had it on there, 1 of which was un moderated. I've now upgraded to a Schmidt 8x56 for the bigger optical, still got the Simmons and it's still fine, a good scope. I don't know how much extra recoil there is with a .303, probably quite a bit. But there is a fair bit with the .243 without a mod on. It sounds to me like it was knackered before it was sold to you. Had you only fired 6 rounds with it on your rifle? I may be wrong but it would seem a big coincidence for it to fail after just 6 rounds with you. What rifle did he have it on and was it moderated or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I use S&B on my rifles but have a Simmonds on my shotgun/slug gun for boar shooting works fine holds the Zero etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagantino Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 The difference in both targets is not huge. I appreciate Frenchie is an experienced shot but I count 6 shots on paper on the first target. That's not bad. I feel a broken mechanism in a telescopic sight would produce an obviously flawed and disparate pattern of holes. That's not apparent here. A " new" scope on a rifle just returned from a Gunsmith might suggest that a little period of "running in" is needed. If no shots had landed on paper I would tend to agree, it's a defective scope, but they are all on. There are so many tiny variables when setting up a new scope to a rifle and I acknowledge again that Frenchie is an old hand, but let's be fair to both parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted November 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I had a Simmons pro hunter (I think?) on my .243 it worked perfectly for the 2 years I had it on there, 1 of which was un moderated. I've now upgraded to a Schmidt 8x56 for the bigger optical, still got the Simmons and it's still fine, a good scope. I don't know how much extra recoil there is with a .303, probably quite a bit. But there is a fair bit with the .243 without a mod on. It sounds to me like it was knackered before it was sold to you. Had you only fired 6 rounds with it on your rifle? I may be wrong but it would seem a big coincidence for it to fail after just 6 rounds with you. What rifle did he have it on and was it moderated or not? I am a big fan of the Simmons Pro-Hunter. I've had a couple without any trouble on my original .222 and for a time on a .243 and they never gave me any problems. The recoil on my Enfield is actually quite tame and not very much more than an unmodified .243, something that quite surprised me. As for what rifle the defective scope was on before I am not sure but what I can say now is that the seller has contacted me and accepted that there is a defect and has agreed to refund the full price, so as far as I am concerned that will be the end of it! Obviously I would love a S&B or Zeiss or something like that but at the moment I have to watch wnat pennies I have, especially with Christmas coming up. The 8X56 will do for now while I get used to the rifle and then get a press and dies to strat to develop a hunting load for it then maybe we will see what I can save up for a good quality scope that will do the Enfield justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted November 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 The difference in both targets is not huge. I appreciate Frenchie is an experienced shot but I count 6 shots on paper on the first target. That's not bad. I feel a broken mechanism in a telescopic sight would produce an obviously flawed and disparate pattern of holes. That's not apparent here. A " new" scope on a rifle just returned from a Gunsmith might suggest that a little period of "running in" is needed. If no shots had landed on paper I would tend to agree, it's a defective scope, but they are all on. There are so many tiny variables when setting up a new scope to a rifle and I acknowledge again that Frenchie is an old hand, but let's be fair to both parties. While I could agree with you (to a certain extent) what I ask you to bare in mind is that the first target shot with the defective scope was shot at just 50 yards and the second target with the spare scope was shot at 100 yards. Had the first target been shot at 100 yards (The same as the second target) it is doubtful if even half of the shots would have been on the paper. I'm sure that you would agree that it only takes a very minor fault or movement in the reticules to make the vast difference at that happened at 50 yards. I have been out and picked up some slightly better ammunition (A 75 round bulk pack of S&B 180g FMJ) today so I will see what happens with the rifle set up with the 8X56 scopes as soon as possible . I'm sure that we will see a reasonably tight group! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russian sniper Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 I used to use a Simmons WTC super night view on my .308 winchester and that did a fantastic job!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russian sniper Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Forgot to add that the group pic was 100yds using SAKO factory ammo off the bipod. I used the same rifle and scope for my DSC1 many moons ago and did rather well - after the shooting test was finished they asked me to shoot a square on the target chosen by them just to make sure it wasn't a fluke If i hadn't moved on to variable S&B scopes on my rifles i'd probably still be using the WTC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted November 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) Just to show what a difference it can make when scopes are working properly here is a 4 shot group that I have just shot this morning at 100 yards using S&B 180 g FMJ ammunition - The target is a 3 inch Shoot-N-See target so roughly a 2 inch group (48mm centre to centre of the two widest shots) at the moment. I suspect that I can close the group in by a reasonable margin (Maybe 50%) once I have developed a suitable load for the rifle rather than using factory ammunition. Even so if that had been a heart and lung shot on either a deer or a fox at 1-- yards (Not that I would ever dream of using FMJ ammunition on any live quarry) it would have been a very dead deer or fox! At least now I know that my old 8X56 scopes and the rifle are working together in a satisfactory way! As for the defective WTC scope that's another matter and something that I can not say too much about as it is in the hands of the Moderators now! Edited November 19, 2013 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 its not a simple as saying "303 recoil is different/more/less to 243 moderated/unmoderated recoil" the different harmonics and shock waves involved in recoil on a moderated centre fire compared to a unmoderated can be enough to break things My S&B spent 30 years on an unmoderated .270 that weight less than 6.25lbs. In folklore one of the heaviest recoiling combinations (in practice it wasn't!) One shot from a moderated Tikka 685 300WM weighing a full lb more snapped the reticule. add the mod and you are well over 2lb more Now you can't tell me that an extra 10gr of powder wasnt counteracted by an extra 2lb. Recoil is less in my 300 compared to the 270 but it still broke the reticule easy to think a change in rifle could break a scope....or it was **** before! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted November 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) I understand what you are saying Brewshire500 but that does not really effect what i am saying. All i am saying is that the recoil from my .303 (As it is now) does not feel any different from when I had my .243 unmoderated - That is not to say that there may be a little difference but to me the recoil from my .303 "feels" quite tame! Thanks for your input anyhow mate, anything that can help us to gain further understanding is always helpful! Edit: I believe that the scope was defective before being fitted as the adjusters felt sticky and gritty whenever you moved them! Edited November 19, 2013 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonblasterian Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 It does sound like you were sold a duff scope so hope you get it sorted.Whether it was done deliberately or not is the sellers word against yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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