Elmer Fudd 1 Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 hi there would anybody be able to help me will an inquiry about an old SxS BSA shotgun. the serial no. is 12202 and the markings i can see on the gun are as follows. BP, BV and NP each have a crown which would lead me to presume these are the proof marks. a marking 1/8 follows the words nitro proof on each barrel and a final marking of the number 12 above the letter C in a diamond is also located on the underside of the barrel block. any help would be greatly appreciated fudd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Bb and bp are Birmingham proof house.and If i am correct np is nitro proof.not sure how to date a old gun like yours but i believe these marks were used from 1904. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 1/8 would be the maximum load and would also equate to 2" - 21/2" chambers. Gun would, I imagine, be pre 1925, as after that date they were stamped with chamber size. BV = Birmingham View BP = Provisional Proof NP = Definitive Nitro Proof. 12C in a diamond = 12 bore choke. This mark was used between 1887 & 1954. They were never stamped with the degree of choke. There should be a date stamp somewhere, crossed swords with a letter above and the number 1 below. A = 1921/22, B = 1922/23 and so on up to 1941 when they changed to AB, BB, BC/CB, DB and so on up to 1974. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham M Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) Proof Marks Ref Mark Proofho use Valid Type of proof L1 London 1637-> “GP” surmounted with a crown. London definitive proof. L2 London 1670-1955 “V” surmounted with a crown. View mark L3 London 1813-> “GP” surmounted by a lion. For provisional proof for barrels L4 London 1868-1925 “VGP” surmounted by a lion. Provisional proof for barrels in definitive proof state L5 London 1904-> Definitive nitro (smokeless) powder proof for all guns L6 London 1916-1954 Definitive nitro (smokeless) proof for military guns L7 London 1925-> “R” surmounted by a crown. For reproof. L8 London 1925-> “SP” surmounted by a crown. Indicates that a barrel has undergone a special proof for heavier loads than normal. Before 1954 this mark was used together with normal definitive mark, but after 1954 it is used as definitive mark as well. L9 London 1925-1954 The letters means the same thing as for the marks above. The circle means “not English made”. L10 London 1989-> Reproof of a barrel with have had removable chokes added L11 NOT NITRO London 1954-> London black powder proof together with L1 L12 London 1988-> “RM” and scimitar over the last numbers of the year. For magazine shotguns with a restricted magazine capability. Year denotes the year of change. L13 London 1988-> “DA” and the last numbers of the year. “DA” stands for “DeActivaded”. Year denotes the year of deactivation. B1 Birmingham 1813-1904 From 1855 definitive black powder proof for all guns with B3 B2 Birmingham 1813-1904 View mark B3 Birmingham 1855-> “BP” surmounted by a crown. Provisional proof. B4 Birmingham “VGP” surmounted by a crown. Provisional proof for barrels in definitive proof state B5 Birmingham 1904-> “BP” surmounted by a crown. Definitive Birmingham proof. B6 Birmingham 1904-1954 “BV” surmounted by a crown. View mark. B7 Birmingham 1904-1954 “NP” surmounted by a crown. Definitive nitro proof. B8 Birmingham 1916-1954 Definitive nitro (smokeless) proof for military guns B9 Birmingham 1925-> R” surmounted by a crown. For reproof. B10 Birmingham 1925-> “SP” surmounted by a crown. Indicates that a barrel has undergone a special proof for heavier loads than normal. Before 1954 this mark was used together with normal definitive mark, but after 1954 it is used as definitive mark as well. B11 Birmingham 1954-> “BNP” surmounted by a crown. Definitive proof. B12 Birmingham 1925-1954 The letters means the same thing as for the marks above. The circle means “not English made”. B13 Birmingham 1989-> Reproof of a barrel with have had removable chokes added B14 BLACK POWDER Birmingham 1954-> Black powder proof together with B5 B15Birmingham 1989-> “MR” and the last numbers of the year. For magazine shotguns with a restricted magazine capability. Year denotes the year of change. B16 Birmingham 1989-> “DA” and the last numbers of the year. “DA” stands for “DeActivaded”. Year denotes the year of deactivation. BL1 London & Birmingham 1887-1954 1954-1984 1984-1989 1989-> Bore in three diffrent measurements.Gauge was used 1887-1954. Decimal inches was used 1954-1984. Decimal inches or mm was used 1954-1984. Mm only is used from 1989. BL2 London & Birmingham 1875-1887 12B means “bore”, 14M means muzzle in the meaning that the gun is choked and not suitable for ball. BL3 London & Birmingham 1887-1954 Replaced BL2. BL4 London & Birmingham 1887-1896(1989) A mark used before nitro proof was regulated with a mark (1896). SCH stands for Schultze a german powder. See BL5 BL5 London & Birmingham 1896-1989 In three different forms.1896-1904 also used Max, Shot and Grs (Grains).1904-1925 omitted Max, Shot and Grs (Grains).1925-1954 just the load followed by oz (ounce).1954-1989 BL6 London & Birmingham 1887-1925 Between 1887-1904 for guns intended for larger than normal powder load. From 1904-1925 the powder and bullet maximum was used, on non-Express as well. BL7 London & Birmingham 1904-1954 For shot and ball BL8 London & Birmingham 1925-> Chamber length. From 1925 only in inches, between 1954-1989 in inches or in mm. From 1989 in mm only. BL9 London & Birmingham 1984-1989 For metric proof the marks indicates proof pressure and not service pressure. BL10 London & Birmingham 1989-> Proof pressure according to CIP. Date marks London The initial London date stamp from 1972 also included the letter “H”, but that was dropped and after that it has only the letters “LP” The millenium was stamped as “MM”. Birmingham Birmingham used date stamp of five different types: the first from 1921 to 1941, the second from 1950 to 1974, the third from 1975 to 1984, the fourth from 1985 until 2005 and the last one from 2005 and onwards. 1921-1941 1950-1974 1975-1984 1984 ->2005 Edited November 21, 2013 by Graham M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffin Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 they stopped for the war 2 never restarted if interested I have copies of old BSA leaflets pm e mail and I will send copies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Some good info there GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe soapy Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 should have Jessops fluid pressed steel on the barrels iirc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmer Fudd 1 Posted November 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 GM that needs pinning im going to have another look tonight see if i can get my exact date. thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Brilliant, my barrels date from 1962! Don't know about the action, it has both London (Crown with a "V") and Birmingham (Crown with "BNP") on it, which implies it was proofed after 1954 but the maker stopped making guns in 1920 (E.M.Reilly)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Brilliant, my barrels date from 1962! Don't know about the action, it has both London (Crown with a "V") and Birmingham (Crown with "BNP") on it, which implies it was proofed after 1954 but the maker stopped making guns in 1920 (E.M.Reilly)...Reproof with a new set of barrels? Edited December 18, 2013 by Paul223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Reproof with a new set of barrels? I knew the barrels weren't original but would have expected original proof marks on the action anyway. Not to worry, still goes bang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 I agree about Graham's post. Very, very useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 I knew the barrels weren't original but would have expected original proof marks on the action anyway. Not to worry, still goes bang Do they remove the original marks when re-proofing? I have a de-activated shotgun which has had all the original marks removed, it only now has the de-activation marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 I have an AYA which has been through the proof house last week, just some fresh stamps on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted April 2, 2022 Report Share Posted April 2, 2022 On 21/11/2013 at 13:12, Graham M said: Proof Marks Ref Mark Proofho use Valid Type of proof L1 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK3.jpg London 1637-> “GP” surmounted with a crown. London definitive proof. L2 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK13-JPG.jpg London 1670-1955 “V” surmounted with a crown. View mark L3 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK1.jpg London 1813-> “GP” surmounted by a lion. For provisional proof for barrels L4 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK21.jpg London 1868-1925 “VGP” surmounted by a lion. Provisional proof for barrels in definitive proof state L5 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK4.jpg London 1904-> Definitive nitro (smokeless) powder proof for all guns L6 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK24.jpg London 1916-1954 Definitive nitro (smokeless) proof for military guns L7 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK25.jpg London 1925-> “R” surmounted by a crown. For reproof. L8 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK7.JPG London 1925-> “SP” surmounted by a crown. Indicates that a barrel has undergone a special proof for heavier loads than normal. Before 1954 this mark was used together with normal definitive mark, but after 1954 it is used as definitive mark as well. L9 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK37.jpg http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK26.jpg London 1925-1954 The letters means the same thing as for the marks above. The circle means “not English made”. L10 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK15.jpg London 1989-> Reproof of a barrel with have had removable chokes added L11 NOT NITRO London 1954-> London black powder proof together with L1 L12 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK46.jpg London 1988-> “RM” and scimitar over the last numbers of the year. For magazine shotguns with a restricted magazine capability. Year denotes the year of change. L13 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK16.jpg London 1988-> “DA” and the last numbers of the year. “DA” stands for “DeActivaded”. Year denotes the year of deactivation. B1 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK11.JPG Birmingham 1813-1904 From 1855 definitive black powder proof for all guns with B3 B2 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK23.jpg Birmingham 1813-1904 View mark B3 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/Uk2.jpg Birmingham 1855-> “BP” surmounted by a crown. Provisional proof. B4 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK20.jpg Birmingham “VGP” surmounted by a crown. Provisional proof for barrels in definitive proof state B5 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK6.JPG Birmingham 1904-> “BP” surmounted by a crown. Definitive Birmingham proof. B6 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK14.JPG Birmingham 1904-1954 “BV” surmounted by a crown. View mark. B7 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK12.JPG Birmingham 1904-1954 “NP” surmounted by a crown. Definitive nitro proof. B8 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK22.jpg Birmingham 1916-1954 Definitive nitro (smokeless) proof for military guns B9 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK10.JPG Birmingham 1925-> R” surmounted by a crown. For reproof. B10 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK8.JPG Birmingham 1925-> “SP” surmounted by a crown. Indicates that a barrel has undergone a special proof for heavier loads than normal. Before 1954 this mark was used together with normal definitive mark, but after 1954 it is used as definitive mark as well. B11 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK47.jpg Birmingham 1954-> “BNP” surmounted by a crown. Definitive proof. B12 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK17.jpghttp://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK18.jpg Birmingham 1925-1954 The letters means the same thing as for the marks above. The circle means “not English made”. B13 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK39.jpg Birmingham 1989-> Reproof of a barrel with have had removable chokes added B14 BLACK POWDER Birmingham 1954-> Black powder proof together with B5 B15Birmingham 1989-> “MR” and the last numbers of the year. For magazine shotguns with a restricted magazine capability. Year denotes the year of change. B16 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK40.jpg Birmingham 1989-> “DA” and the last numbers of the year. “DA” stands for “DeActivaded”. Year denotes the year of deactivation. BL1 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK41.jpg London & Birmingham 1887-1954 1954-1984 1984-1989 1989-> Bore in three diffrent measurements. Gauge was used 1887-1954. Decimal inches was used 1954-1984. Decimal inches or mm was used 1954-1984. Mm only is used from 1989. BL2 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK45.jpg London & Birmingham 1875-1887 12B means “bore”, 14M means muzzle in the meaning that the gun is choked and not suitable for ball. BL3 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK44.jpg London & Birmingham 1887-1954 Replaced BL2. BL4 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK43.jpg London & Birmingham 1887-1896(1989) A mark used before nitro proof was regulated with a mark (1896). SCH stands for Schultze a german powder. See BL5 BL5 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK27.jpg London & Birmingham 1896-1989 In three different forms. 1896-1904 also used Max, Shot and Grs (Grains). 1904-1925 omitted Max, Shot and Grs (Grains). 1925-1954 just the load followed by oz (ounce). 1954-1989 BL6 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK31.jpg London & Birmingham 1887-1925 Between 1887-1904 for guns intended for larger than normal powder load. From 1904-1925 the powder and bullet maximum was used, on non-Express as well. BL7 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK29.jpg London & Birmingham 1904-1954 For shot and ball BL8 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK36.jpg London & Birmingham 1925-> Chamber length. From 1925 only in inches, between 1954-1989 in inches or in mm. From 1989 in mm only. BL9 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK30.jpg London & Birmingham 1984-1989 For metric proof the marks indicates proof pressure and not service pressure. BL10 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK28.jpg London & Birmingham 1989-> Proof pressure according to CIP. Date marks London The initial London date stamp from 1972 also included the letter “H”, but that was dropped and after that it has only the letters “LP” http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK32.jpg The millenium was stamped as “MM”. Birmingham Birmingham used date stamp of five different types: the first from 1921 to 1941, the second from 1950 to 1974, the third from 1975 to 1984, the fourth from 1985 until 2005 and the last one from 2005 and onwards. 1921-1941 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK35.jpg 1950-1974 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK34.jpg 1975-1984 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK33.jpg 1984 ->2005 http://www.shotguns.se/assets/images/UK38.jpg I thought it was time to dig up this particular post. Very useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted April 4, 2022 Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 I can not think of why anyone would pay for new barrels on a BSA .Even back in the 50's it wold have cost far more than the gun was worth . Jokingly BSA [bits scraps & all sorts ] may be what you have . Difficult to say without seeing it but I suggest a set of later BSA barrel have been " grafted" on .These were machine made guns and pretty interchangeable . It is also quite possible knowing a little of how the Birmingham Trade operated that there were surplus BSA barrels about that could have been fitted . We will never know . On that point there were barrelled actions kicking about from The Midland Gun and Rodda [fire damaged ] as late as the 80's for instance . It was my understanding that BSA did resume gun manufacture after WW2 but only for a few years , but on this I'm willing to be corrected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted April 5, 2022 Report Share Posted April 5, 2022 On 04/04/2022 at 09:14, Gunman said: I can not think of why anyone would pay for new barrels on a BSA .Even back in the 50's it wold have cost far more than the gun was worth . Jokingly BSA [bits scraps & all sorts ] may be what you have . Difficult to say without seeing it but I suggest a set of later BSA barrel have been " grafted" on .These were machine made guns and pretty interchangeable . It is also quite possible knowing a little of how the Birmingham Trade operated that there were surplus BSA barrels about that could have been fitted . We will never know . On that point there were barrelled actions kicking about from The Midland Gun and Rodda [fire damaged ] as late as the 80's for instance . It was my understanding that BSA did resume gun manufacture after WW2 but only for a few years , but on this I'm willing to be corrected My barrels are stamped BC Miroku mfg Co so I think its unlikely they're BSA. I resurrected this thread because it has the Birmingham proof marks and may help someone else. After extensive Google research the best resource on proof marks was actually here on PW, just buried.😄🥴 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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