Can I instruct cadets to shoot legally?

[Greenhunter]

Pretty much as in title really.

I may have the chance to give some shooting instruction to a group of cadets but I am unsure of the legalities when it comes to using my rifles and whether I can use them on a range etc. I have an 'open' cert but only for vermin and zeroing on ranges.

I'm guessing that I may need a variation at least.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

GH

[Dougy]

If i were in your boots i would certianly check with a professional organisation like BASC before i started anything like that, it could end up not good if anything went A over T

[scotslad]

I would also double check with BASC and possibly ur own police firearms team.

 

Law can be quite strange with letting youngsters use ur FAC rifles with them having a FAC, think illegal to let ur own kid if under 14 use ur 22lr without his own FAC.

May be different on ranges but i would double and triple check possibly getting it in writting/email

 

Might be easier just with airguns?

[DaveK]

you need to be a qualified instructor and possibly an RCO. Definitely the former. A friend of mine is a cadet instructor and has had to take qualifications to do it.

 

And I very much doubt their insurance would cover privately owned firearms.

Edited January 8, 2014 by DaveK

[Greenhunter]

Thanks for the replies. I will definitely check with my Firearms team and also BASC before dong anything.

I had thought it would be easier with airguns too and that is probably the way to go to start with anyway.

I have no specific info on what may be required or what the setup is so I wanted to know the legalities before I get into any discussions with anyone about it.

I see it as a great opportunity to give a bit back to the sport and encourage youngsters into it if its at all possible.

 

GH

[Tiff-TRG]

I'm involved with coaching people with their own rifles & mine, both outside and within the setting of a formal range.

 

The main issues are insurance, legalities and qualifications & these vary slightly depending on if people are on a range or not.

 

On private land, at the very least everyone shooting must be insured (+if you're receiving payment buisness insurance is required). For section 1 firearms everyone needs to be over 17 (14+ if their own), although over 18 can make things easier all round. Plus it would make sense to have some formal qualifications i.e. RCO and obviously they must sign a section 21 form etc.

 

On a range within a military context your firearms would have to be approved for use (amourer etc.) (read unlikley...), you would have to be qualified for coaching with them and all that entails. This will the allow activites to run within their insurance.

 

It may be easier to remove any thoughts of using your own rifles on a range/formal cadet activity and instead offer to help out with coaching or even just assisting with range days.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Tiff-TRG

[HDAV]

What sort of cadets there is guidance for pretty much everything have a read: http://members.scouts.org.uk/factsheets/FS120004.pdf

[welshwarrior]

I would check as you certainly wherent cover a few years ago to teach people with your personal firearms on a military range.

 

Cadets have even more fun rules than Green Army if in doubt check with the Army Rifle Association based in Bisley they will have a definitive answer as they write the rules.

[Dekers]

You don't have to be a qualified instructor or a RCO to train/teach/instruct anyone on gun handling/shooting etc.

 

You do need the right conditions on your FAC to target shoot (unless a guest at an approved club or you have another exemption).

 

Field work and Zeroing are NOT target, Daft though it may seem you appear to only be conditioned for zeroing, so be very careful on what name you actually give to your range work. If you want a SPECIFIC target condition you will need to join an approved club and likely serve a probation period!

 

Insurance is another matter altogether and has no direct effect on your ability to show anyone the ropes.

 

I am a Home Office approved Rifle Club Secretary, NRA qualified RCO and a shooting instructor, etc etc

 

Be careful, upfront and honest!

[Greenhunter]

Again, thanks for all your imput. It looks very much like it will be airgun, if at all.

However, I will look into it and then make a decision should the situation arise.

Really grateful to all

 

GH

[dadioles]

I sympathise with what you are trying to do but unfortunately the bureaucracy will probably get in the way of your good intentions.

 

What you may be able to do (purely an uninformed opinion - I may be offering you bad advice) is take one or two cadets at a time, not as part of any formal arrangement, to wherever you zero your guns and let them have a go.

 

From time to time I take people (over 17 years old) with me to one of my permissions and give them some informal rimfire experience, shooting at targets.

 

I see it as a public relations exercise more than anything else. Both they and I enjoy it and no money changes hands.

 

As with so many things, the law is unclear. I rely on the part of the Firearms Act that allows an "occupier" to "lend" a rifle to someone. Unfortunately "occupier" is not clearly defined but my logic is that if I, and my guests, behave sensibly and do nothing to draw undue attention to ourselves we are unlikely to be prosecuted. Until a court defines "occupier" I am relying on one accepted definition as "... any person having any right of hunting ...". I have the landowners permission to shoot rabbits on their land, that is hunting.

 

"Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a person over the age of seventeen to borrow a rifle

from the occupier of private premises and to use it on those premises in the presence of

either the occupier or their servant without holding a firearm certificate in respect of that

rifle."

Even though a 14 year old can have their own firearms certificate I am not at all sure where we stand as far as letting a youngster (under 17) "have a go". 17 years old and over seems to be covered in the legislation but I really do not have clue about allowing use by anyone younger.

As far as (sub 12ft lb) air rifles are concerned it is much easier:

"A person under 14 may use an air gun under the supervision of a person aged 21 or over, on private premises with the consent of the occupier of those premises."

Back to the definition of "occupier" again.

Edited January 9, 2014 by dadioles

[welshwarrior]

You don't have to be a qualified instructor or a RCO to train/teach/instruct anyone on gun handling/shooting etc.

 

You do need the right conditions on your FAC to target shoot (unless a guest at an approved club or you have another exemption).

 

Field work and Zeroing are NOT target, Daft though it may seem you appear to only be conditioned for zeroing, so be very careful on what name you actually give to your range work. If you want a SPECIFIC target condition you will need to join an approved club and likely serve a probation period!

 

Insurance is another matter altogether and has no direct effect on your ability to show anyone the ropes.

 

I am a Home Office approved Rifle Club Secretary, NRA qualified RCO and a shooting instructor, etc etc

 

Be careful, upfront and honest!

Those are civilian laws not Military rules!!! And these are Cadets so under military rule for training.

[DaveK]

You don't have to be a qualified instructor or a RCO to train/teach/instruct anyone on gun handling/shooting etc.

 

You do need the right conditions on your FAC to target shoot (unless a guest at an approved club or you have another exemption).

 

Field work and Zeroing are NOT target, Daft though it may seem you appear to only be conditioned for zeroing, so be very careful on what name you actually give to your range work. If you want a SPECIFIC target condition you will need to join an approved club and likely serve a probation period!

 

Insurance is another matter altogether and has no direct effect on your ability to show anyone the ropes.

 

I am a Home Office approved Rifle Club Secretary, NRA qualified RCO and a shooting instructor, etc etc

 

Be careful, upfront and honest!

You don't know much about the military then Dekers?

[dadioles]

Combined Cadet Force, Sea Cadet Corps, Army Cadet Force and Air Training Corps

18.39. Cadets are regarded as Crown Servants for the purposes of the Firearms Acts and are

exempt from the requirement to possess a firearm certificate when shooting as a member

of the corps. Furthermore, firearms may be acquired for the corps by a responsible officer

duly authorised in writing by the unit’s commanding officer without the need for a firearm

certificate (section 54(2)(b) of the 1968 Act).

It just makes me wonder if this could be a way around your problem if you were accompanied by a "responsible officer" during your training session.

[arjimlad]

 

I sympathise with what you are trying to do but unfortunately the bureaucracy will probably get in the way of your good intentions.

 

What you may be able to do (purely an uninformed opinion - I may be offering you bad advice) is take one or two cadets at a time, not as part of any formal arrangement, to wherever you zero your guns and let them have a go.

 

From time to time I take people (over 17 years old) with me to one of my permissions and give them some informal rimfire experience, shooting at targets.

 

I see it as a public relations exercise more than anything else. Both they and I enjoy it and no money changes hands.

 

As with so many things, the law is unclear. I rely on the part of the Firearms Act that allows an "occupier" to "lend" a rifle to someone. Unfortunately "occupier" is not clearly defined but my logic is that if I, and my guests, behave sensibly and do nothing to draw undue attention to ourselves we are unlikely to be prosecuted. Until a court defines "occupier" I am relying on one accepted definition as "... any person having any right of hunting ...". I have the landowners permission to shoot rabbits on their land, that is hunting.

 

"Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a person over the age of seventeen to borrow a rifle

from the occupier of private premises and to use it on those premises in the presence of

either the occupier or their servant without holding a firearm certificate in respect of that

rifle."

Even though a 14 year old can have their own firearms certificate I am not at all sure where we stand as far as letting a youngster (under 17) "have a go". 17 years old and over seems to be covered in the legislation but I really do not have clue about allowing use by anyone younger.

As far as (sub 12ft lb) air rifles are concerned it is much easier:

"A person under 14 may use an air gun under the supervision of a person aged 21 or over, on private premises with the consent of the occupier of those premises."

Back to the definition of "occupier" again.

 

 

In those circumstances you are the servant of the occupier, not the occupier, I would suggest. Either way, you are OK with that for FAC and airguns as stated. "Servant" exemption does not apply to shotguns though.

[dadioles]

 

In those circumstances you are the servant of the occupier, not the occupier, I would suggest. Either way, you are OK with that for FAC and airguns as stated. "Servant" exemption does not apply to shotguns though.

 

On that basis, if I am the "servant", I would not be able to "lend" my rifle as it has to be the "occupiers" rifle. As the "servant" I would simply be in a supervisory role.

It is all a bit stupid really and in practice common sense has to be the name of the game until the legislation is overhauled.

[DaveK]

 

On that basis, if I am the "servant", I would not be able to "lend" my rifle as it has to be the "occupiers" rifle. As the "servant" I would simply be in a supervisory role.

It is all a bit stupid really and in practice common sense has to be the name of the game until the legislation is overhauled.

No. This applies to general use. Servant of the occupier is not the same as being a servant of the Crown. If the range was being hired by a shooting club and you were a qualified RCO then yes people could use other firearms but as already said, cadets are crown servants and subject to crown regulations and military range safety orders. The quote above does not authorise the commanding officer to authorise use of privately owned weapons. It does authorise the CO to acquire and the use of authorised (cadet issued) weapons without the need for a club FAC.

 

Scenario. CO says you can instruct his cadets with your rifles. one has an accident and someone is injured. HSE, insurance company, RMP's et al would be asking who's rifles? maintained by authorised armourer? Qualifications and official status of instructor? Who gave permission? CO and yourself would be in deep doo doo.

 

Now taking the cadets to a HO approved club as probationery members would allow them to use club guns.

 

Your motives for this are to be applauded but it could open a can of worms.

[HDAV]

Cadets in military cadet forces surely have access to ranges and firearms already they may need someone to organise and drive them....

[Dekers]

You don't have to be a qualified instructor or a RCO to train/teach/instruct anyone on gun handling/shooting etc.

 

You do need the right conditions on your FAC to target shoot (unless a guest at an approved club or you have another exemption).

 

Field work and Zeroing are NOT target, Daft though it may seem you appear to only be conditioned for zeroing, so be very careful on what name you actually give to your range work. If you want a SPECIFIC target condition you will need to join an approved club and likely serve a probation period!

 

Insurance is another matter altogether and has no direct effect on your ability to show anyone the ropes.

 

I am a Home Office approved Rifle Club Secretary, NRA qualified RCO and a shooting instructor, etc etc

 

Be careful, upfront and honest!

 

 

You don't know much about the military then Dekers?

 

Which part didn't you understand, the answer is pertinent to the instructor as asked.

 

He is not a military instructor or he would not be asking the question.

[Dekers]

Those are civilian laws not Military rules!!! And these are Cadets so under military rule for training.

 

 

Greenhunter is NOT a military instructor or he would have no need to ask the question, so he is not under military rules and has no military exemption from anything.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Dekers

[DaveK]

 

 

Greenhunter is NOT a military instructor or he would have no need to ask the question, so he is not under military rules and has no military exemption from anything.

Maybe he isn't but the cadets are and if on a military range he would have to be. Hang on, I'll just go over to Strensall ranges and instruct anyone on there. I'll take my rifles just in case anyone wants a 300 yard plink. The cadets are classed as CROWN SERVANTS. Which part of that do you find difficult to understand?

[Dekers]

Maybe he isn't but the cadets are and if on a military range he would have to be. Hang on, I'll just go over to Strensall ranges and instruct anyone on there. I'll take my rifles just in case anyone wants a 300 yard plink. The cadets are classed as CROWN SERVANTS. Which part of that do you find difficult to understand?

 

 

It would appear you have just turned up for an argument?

 

Seems you don't know a lot about the military. There are LOADS of non military personel working on military sites. Just because you work on a military site and/or indeed train military personnel it does not mean your can throw out the civilian rule book! Looks likely it will be .22lr so I guess 300 yards is a little unlikely, generally they will train/practice at 25-50 yards and who said the training would even be on a military site?

 

Which part of the fact the instructor isn't military and therefore has no military exclusion do you find difficult to understand?

 

Read my post!

 

If you want a debate PM me.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Dekers

[welshwarrior]

 

 

It would appear you have just turned up for an argument?

 

Seems you don't know a lot about the military. There are LOADS of non military personel working on military sites. Just because you work on a military site and/or indeed train military personnel it does not mean your can throw out the civilian rule book! Looks likely it will be .22lr so I guess 300 yards is a little unlikely, generally they will train/practice at 25-50 yards an who said the training would even be on a military site?

 

Which part of the fact the instructor isn't military and therefore has no military exclusion do you find difficult to understand?

 

Read my post!

 

If you want a debate PM me.

Dekers you've missed the point the Cadets are undertaking military training they can only be taught to use weapons but Military instructors on military time.

 

If the OP wants to teach them outside Military time he just has to follow civilian regulations.

 

If with all your range qualifications etc joined the Cadets/TA/Regulars you still could not take anyone near a range until you had the correct military qualification and held a high enough rank.

 

Likewise I can't run an NRA range of any sort but can take military onto the ranges at Bisley to shoot.

[Dekers]

Dekers you've missed the point the Cadets are undertaking military training they can only be taught to use weapons but Military instructors on military time.

 

If the OP wants to teach them outside Military time he just has to follow civilian regulations.

 

If with all your range qualifications etc joined the Cadets/TA/Regulars you still could not take anyone near a range until you had the correct military qualification and held a high enough rank.

 

Likewise I can't run an NRA range of any sort but can take military onto the ranges at Bisley to shoot.

 

That is making sense if viewed in that way, as is line 2 of your response!

 

The fact is we don't know, so perhaps there is room for debate!

[welshwarrior]

 

That is making sense if viewed in that way, as is line 2 of your response!

 

The fact is we don't know, so perhaps there is room for debate!

I know the rules from 4 years ago when I helped the cadets do this as the need military saftey staff to shoot clays, 22lr and air rifles. I also told the OP who could confirm the rules had not changed.