955i Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) Been wondering about this for a while now. They are essentially non-native, most shoots put birds down each year, and from what I have read they do not breed hugely well in the wild so why is a closed season deemed necessary/observed and would it have a great effect on numbers if it was repealed? Edited February 5, 2014 by 955i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonicdmb Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 It would disturb far more than just pheasants, what about all the other birds breeding at the same time? What are the keepers going to think if you want shooting to carry on while trying to rear the next lot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 To allow for rearing releasing and settling the birds. If it was open season all year there would be non left in a couple of years. Figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 Fair enough, don't know a lot about this side of shooting. Was just thinking if you are out for a day and a pheasant takes up what the harm would be in taking it, not talking about driven shoots all year. Can see that it would be taken advantage of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 21:39, 955i said: Been wondering about this for a while now. They are essentially non-native, most shoots put birds down each year, and from what I have read they do not breed hugely well in the wild so why is a closed season deemed necessary/observed and would it have a great effect on numbers if it was repealed? What do you shoot during the year? TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 There are wild bird populations in some parts of the country, they wouldn't last long if year round shooting was allowed. Not sure sure that it would be great for other native species that are struggling like grey partridge if they were disturbed by driven pheasant shooting through their breeding period. Also, gamekeepers seem to work flat out for little reward for a four month season, what would it be like for them? There are probably all sorts of other reasons that don't immediately spring to mind. I can see an argument for extending the season or moving the whole season forward by a month, but not year round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 The keepers wouldn't have time to go on long expensive holidays abroad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 21:51, The Essex Hunter said: What do you shoot during the year? TEH Pigeon and rabbit. Used to be in a small syndicate but stopped a couple of years ago due to cost. On 05/02/2014 at 21:51, Blunderbuss said: There are wild bird populations in some parts of the country, they wouldn't last long if year round shooting was allowed. Not sure sure that it would be great for other native species that are struggling like grey partridge if they were disturbed by driven pheasant shooting through their breeding period. Also, gamekeepers seem to work flat out for little reward for a four month season, what would it be like for them? There are probably all sorts of other reasons that don't immediately spring to mind. I can see an argument for extending the season or moving the whole season forward by a month, but not year round. See previous post, not thinking of all year driven shoots, just when you come across the odd one while out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 21:55, 955i said: Pigeon and rabbit. Used to be in a small syndicate but stopped a couple of years ago due to cost. See previous post, not thinking of all year driven shoots, just when you come across the odd one while out. The fact that it's just the odd one would be more likely to be a wild bird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonicdmb Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 In that case why not the odd roe doe grey partridge etc? You may only take the odd one while walking but if it was open season then what's to stop anyone else shooting more than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 22:05, sonicdmb said: In that case why not the odd roe doe grey partridge etc? You may only take the odd one while walking but if it was open season then what's to stop anyone else shooting more than that? OK, that is understood, but if deer are at the pest proportion that is claimed why is there closed season, and foxes/pigeons/squirrels etc all bounce back from all year shooting (again, not organized but incidental) so why wouldn't pheasant and partridge do the same? Not trying to be argumentative but there must be a historic reason for it and I'm interested in where it started Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonicdmb Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 Deer where there is a problem can be dealt with under licence or exemption iirc. And are not the problem made out to be maybe in some places but not country wide. The historic reason behind most game laws was to protect them from those other than the land owner ie poachers pot hunters. When wild birds where far more important to the success of a shoot. As for foxes etc bouncing back habitat has a lot to do with it foxes move in from towns and other unkeepered land game birds don't breed without the right habitat. Pests are pests because they are far more adaptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) On 05/02/2014 at 22:15, 955i said: OK, that is understood, but if deer are at the pest proportion that is claimed why is there closed season, and foxes/pigeons/squirrels etc all bounce back from all year shooting (again, not organized but incidental) so why wouldn't pheasant and partridge do the same? Not trying to be argumentative but there must be a historic reason for it and I'm interested in where it started Foxes don't have any natural predators so they have a chance, pigeons nest in trees so they have a chance, squirrels do have natural predators but live in trees in general so they have a chance. Gamebirds are ground nesting birds which are easy pray for all sorts of vermin so they don't have anywhere near the chances of bouncing back, you just need to know how bad grey partridges are fairing lately. Close season for gamebirds doesn't just give them a chance of breeding successfully but all sorts of other ground nesting birds. Most people who shoot other during the close season tend not to bother the woods too much during spring so as to give the woodland wildlife a chance. The odd shotgun shot at a squirrel, fox, crow etc isn't too disturbing but nobody would want people wandering through nesting sites in the spring. Deer is a totally different ball game as they are managed in a similar way to stock (I know it isn't the same) and if there was not season there would be nothing to stop people from shooting a doe/hind leaving young that cannot survive on their own which in turn depletes your stock leaving no new breeding stock for the next year which in turn they would end up like the grey partridge. Remember, if deemed a pest deer can be taken out of season. Edited February 5, 2014 by r1steele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 22:31, sonicdmb said: The historic reason behind most game laws was to protect them from those other than the land owner ie poachers pot hunters. When wild birds where far more important to the success of a shoot. This is an interesting point and questions whether the restriction is still valid. Personally I pick most of my pheasant off the roadside and the rest are given by a neighbor who shoots on a syndicate On 05/02/2014 at 22:35, r1steele said: Foxes don't have any natural predators so they have a chance, pigeons nest in trees so they have a chance, squirrels do have natural predators but live in trees in general so they have a chance. Gamebirds are ground nesting birds which are easy pray for all sorts of vermin so they don't have anywhere near the chances of bouncing back, you just need to know how bad grey partridges are fairing lately. Close season for gamebirds doesn't just give them a chance of breeding successfully but all sorts of other ground nesting birds. Most people who shoot other during the close season tend not to bother the woods too much during spring so as to give the woodland wildlife a chance. The odd shotgun shot at a squirrel, fox, crow etc isn't too disturbing but nobody would want people wandering through nesting sites in the spring. Deer is a totally different ball game as they are managed in a similar way to stock (I know it isn't the same) and if there was not season there would be nothing to stop people from shooting a doe/hind leaving young that cannot survive on their own which in turn depletes your stock leaving no new breeding stock for the next year which in turn they would end up like the grey partridge. Remember, if deemed a pest deer can be taken out of season. I consider my question answered. Thankyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) Wild birds do breed very readily but the natural predation rate of both hens, while sitting and poults before flying is huge. That is why they have such large clutches. The cocks survive much better because they always roost in trees. Cocks play no part in rearing, just have the pleasure of serving as many hens as they can. Maybe cocks could be on the general licence. Edited February 5, 2014 by Fisheruk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) There is many reasons why u should not apart from the legal side of it. If u continue ur argument why not shoot any bird? even song birds all could be eaten (won't be that much difference between a snipe and a blacky) why not shoot curlew used to be allowed to, if its only odd folk shooting them won't do much harm? Why obey any law rule? If only odd folk breaking it it won't really matter will it? Big difference is with pigeons is the numbers their population is booming due to modern agriculture and the way they breed/nest and reproduce, but probably a very good argument for not shooting them throu nesting season Name 1 ground nesting bird species or mammal for that matter that is really thriving the now? the sheer ammount of vermin is wipeing out every ground nesting animal coupled with habitat loss and changes to agri they are fighting a losing battle. When u read some of the old game books some estates where shooting thousands of grey partridge every year not that long ago. Read an article about the capercallie in the 50's were estimated to be around 20,000 birds now down to last 1,000, a lot of our nature is on its knees But for me the biggest reason is u should not be allowing ur dogs to hunt hedgerows or woods from april/may time onwards, wether or not ur shooting is irrelevant, it's the damage cuased by hunting dogs in undergrowth disturbing while birds are attempting to sit would be devasting. I am very careful where i train my dogs throu te summer months to try and disturb as few birds as possible. Shooting isn't the biggest issue it is the disturbance esp by dogs. I know 1 very good grouse keeper who grudges going onto his moor every day to chek his traps throu the summer due to the disturbance it will cuase his grouse, and that is 1 man quietly walking/driving quad, generally nature does not want us anywhere near it As for deer, even in scotland where they are widely reguarded as pests on large areas of land and shot very hard (under licence) they still mantain a stricty close season for females no matter how high the numbers are, and quite right too. Edited February 5, 2014 by scotslad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) On 05/02/2014 at 22:41, scotslad said: There is many reasons why u should not apart from the legal side of it. If u continue ur argument why not shoot any bird? even song birds all could be eaten (won't be that much difference between a snipe and a blacky) why not shoot curlew used to be allowed to, if its only odd folk shooting them won't do much harm? Why obey any law rule? If only odd folk breaking it it won't really matter will it? Big difference is with pigeons is the numbers their population is booming due to modern agriculture and the way they breed/nest and reproduce, but probably a very good argument for not shooting them throu nesting season Name 1 ground nesting bird species or mammal for that matter that is really thriving the now? the sheer ammount of vermin is wipeing out every ground nesting animal coupled with habitat loss and changes to agri they are fighting a losing battle. When u read some of the old game books some estates where shooting thousands of grey partridge every year not that long ago. Read an article about the capercallie in the 50's were estimated to be around 20,000 birds now down to last 1,000, a lot of our nature is on its knees But for me the biggest reason is u should not be allowing ur dogs to hunt hedgerows or woods from april/may time onwards, wether or not ur shooting wot u put up is irrelevant the damage cuased by hunting dogs in undergrowth while birds are attempting to sit would be devasting. I am very careful where i train my dogs throu te summer months to try and disturb as few birds as possible. Shooting isn't the biggest issue it is the disturbance esp by dogs. I know 1 very good grouse keeper who grudges going onto his moor every day to chek his traps throu the summer due to the disturbance it will cuase his grouse, and that is 1 man quietly walking/driving quad, generally nature does not want us anywhere near it As for deer, even in scotland where they are widely reguarded as pests on large areas of land and shot very hard (under licence) they still mantain a stricty close season for females no matter how high the numbers are, and quite right too. Do I really need to say it again??? Try reading previous posts before you comment!! 3rd time lucky - I am NOT TALKING ABOUT DRIVEN SHOOTS just if a single bird happens to take up while you are walking a field. I don't really care as pheasant are definitely inferior to pigeon for taste and sport and after a couple of seasons I could not see any point in paying to shoot them. Edited February 5, 2014 by 955i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 22:38, 955i said: I consider my question answered. Thankyou No problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 I did read the post! Just takes me longer than 3 mins to write a post!! No where havee i mentioned driven shooting. But wot is to stop every person just taking 1 for the pot? All adds up. Or is it only u that is allowed to shoot pheasants when u please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 23:09, scotslad said: I did read the post! Just takes me longer than 3 mins to write a post!! No where havee i mentioned driven shooting. But wot is to stop every person just taking 1 for the pot? All adds up. Or is it only u that is allowed to shoot pheasants when u please You were talking about hunting dogs in undergrowth i.e. driving/flushed shoots which is not really to do with the question raised. If it were only me allowed to shoot them then kills would probably be somewhere around nil as there are many things I would eat above pheasant. As I said, if I see them at the roadside or they are given to me then fine, but the eating is not good enough to waste money and cartridges on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 I give up, How does hunting a dog (or dogs) in undergrowth = a driven bird. How do u usually flush birds if u don't use a dog. Possibly i have been doing it wrong all these years I was trying to help but u obviously know it all. Good nite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) On 05/02/2014 at 23:26, scotslad said: I give up, How does hunting a dog (or dogs) in undergrowth = a driven bird. How do u usually flush birds if u don't use a dog. Possibly i have been doing it wrong all these years I was trying to help but u obviously know it all. Good nite OK 4th time, no dogs, no beaters just an odd occasion when you may put a bird up after other quarry. That is what I am/was asking. Is it that hard to understand? You gave me a good answer, but then have persued it to a nonsense. Edited February 5, 2014 by 955i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 So the OP doesnt even shoot anything, someone has taken the time to help answer question in depth and the OP is being arsy about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 23:33, Malik said: So the OP doesnt even shoot anything, someone has taken the time to help answer question in depth and the OP is being arsy about it Dear God, does no-one read threads before replying? Have clearly stated I shoot pigeon and rabbit and have no real knowledge of the history of game shooting. Can you pass this on to anyone you know that may ask the same question as I'm tired of repeating this **** for lazy readers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 On 05/02/2014 at 23:38, 955i said: Dear God, does no-one read threads before replying? Have clearly stated I shoot pigeon and rabbit and have no real knowledge of the history of game shooting. Can you pass this on to anyone you know that may ask the same question as I'm tired of repeating this **** for lazy readers wooo sah! I did read it... I just remember you commenting in another topic a while back you haven't had any permission in about 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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