Should the English have a say on Scottish independence?

[aris]

On that account should Scotland then not receive 1/4 embassy's? Or whatever proportion already paid for?

 

Embassies aren't assets which are owned - they are state services run by civil servants, who are paid for by tax payers for the benefit of citizens of their respective countries.

[mick miller]

And they were paid for by, and this is the important bit, the UK government. If one member opts out they're no longer part of the 'UK' and so have relinquished all rights to any property or items which have been paid for by the whole. It's a new slate, wiped clean, fresh start, new beginning free from tyranny and the plummy (albeit it seems mostly Scottish descendent populated) Parliament based in the evil, self-serving, wicked Southern country of Engerlandishire...

Edited February 24, 2014 by mick miller

[robbietherimmer]

As its Scotland's decision it should b up to them IMO. Us English will b fine.

[mick miller]

Yes, with a bit of effort we could finalise the whole thing by digging a channel between Scotland and England and while we're at it, Wales too. Then that would just leave the Cornish, sack them off as well and we're left with the Thatcher's vision of a 'nation of shopkeepers' although most of them are now of Asian origin I grant you.

 

I see the future and it looks bleak!

[Casey1875]

And they were paid for by, and this is the important bit, the UK government. If one member opts out they're no longer part of the 'UK' and so have relinquished all rights to any property or items which have been paid for by the whole. It's a new slate, wiped clean, fresh start, new beginning free from tyranny and the plummy (albeit it seems mostly Scottish descendent populated) Parliament based in the evil, self-serving, wicked Southern country of Engerlandishire...

in that case then surely it must be the UK governments debt? Meaning if Scotland leave it will start with a clean slate.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

 

i have and the facts are supported by academic evidence in the UK & America the vast majority of German causalities were on the eastern front Proportions, however, are crucial. Since 75%-80% of all German losses were inflicted on the eastern front it follows that the efforts of the western allies accounted for only 20%-25%. Furthermore, since the British Army deployed no more than 28 divisions as compared with the American army’s 99, the British contribution to victory must have been in the region of 5%-6%. Britons who imagine that “we won the war” need to think again.

 

simple facts we did our bit and we should be rightly proud

Ah, beware of the lies, damned lies and statistics lovers.

 

First you quote the casualty figures to justify your argument, and when this is queried you turn to the number of divisions employed. Russia was hopelessly unprepared for war, and their casualty figures reflect this. Their only initial answer was human wave tactics, with some units having less than 50% of the rifles for their infantry squads.

 

Little old GB was totally unprepared for WW 11, as was most of the attacked countries - that's the wicked way of the world and how wars are won. If it wasn't for the channel GB would have been easy meat for Germany too. It gave us time to build up our armaments industry, and ship in armaments from the US who were not short to make a quick buck.

 

After the battle of Britain Hitler lost patience with a quick victory over us and turned to Russia - who let us not forget was an ally of Germany and helped carve up Poland.

 

Pearl Harbour brought in the US, and Hitler was stupid enough to use this to declare war on the US and that was it - the industrial might of the US meant that it was only a matter of time before the output of the largest industrial might of the world made a difference.

 

Oh, and after Pearl Harbour GB had to take on the Japanese as well. Like Germany they were ready for war, and their initial gains reflected this.

 

Some statistic lovers say that air power won the war - it certainly had the ability to reduce our casualty rates whilst destroying the German armaments industry and oil supplies - you cannot run tanks and an air force on fresh air.

 

Ah, lies, damned lies and statistics. Statisticians love to sit in their armchairs churning out convenient facts to support their distorted views.

 

The good old US won the war - we ended up bankrupt (the US didn't exactly forget to ask us to pay for all the armaments we bought from them), and Russia gained even greater temporary influence in the world.

[Gimlet]

 

Really, are you that ill informed? 85.93% of the England is white according to the 2011 census or are you saying the census is wrong and there are 96+ million English residents and the majority are not white?

No, it is another of your racist slurs!

 

 

Why racist, why a slur? I have not followed avidly Truflex's contributions but in this instance though he may have made a sweeping generalisation he did not express hostility, merely surprise; nor did he use prejudicial or insulting language. He may or may not have his facts wrong but the mere mention of race or immigration is not in itself racist.

And besides, the ethnic demographic varies hugely from region to region and borough to borough. I'd be vastly surprised in the population of central London conformed to the national average of 85.3% white English. Whether that is something to be celebrated or regretted is a matter of personal opinion, but the poster in question did not express his personal opinion, you inferred it. This might sound pedantic but its an important point because knee-jerk reactions and assuming the worst of people before you know the truth is something that works both ways.

[Dekers]

...anyway...

Yes, we should have a referendum......

"Do we want to keep Scotland in the union or let them go?"

 

[Guest rimotu66]

Ok, to answer the question asked seriously this time, I do believe in the Union including Wales, Northern Island and even Cornwall ( ) and I do want Scotland to stay in, are are to small an Island to separate. All my own opinion of course.

 

Not that is matters but my Great Grandfather Patterson was Scottish, must be where my love of Scotch and White pudding comes from

[TDRsniper]

I'll accept that this vote should only be taken by residents of Scotland but with a caveat that IF Scotland decides to break up the union then they have to bear all the costs of doing so, it's naive to think that this isn't going to cost a huge amount of money on both parts to try and unpick the hundreds and thousands of links between us and because of that if we have to jointly bear the costs we should jointly have a vote.

neither country is in a financial position to go through this now...the worst part about it is the timing as we have just been through (are still going through) the deepest recession in recent history

 

I am open to the romantic notion of Scottish independence as I'm sure many Scots are but, the breakup of the union for any reason should be negotiated over years and not months and it should be based upon solid truths and robust information not as a mechanism for political point scoring.

 

IMHO

[islandgun]

 

I am open to the romantic notion of Scottish independence as I'm sure many Scots are but, the breakup of the union for any reason should be negotiated over years and not months and it should be based upon solid truths and robust information not as a mechanism for political point scoring.

 

IMHO

Well said that man

[Gimlet]

David Cameron during his visit to Scotland yesterday expressed his regret that as an Englishman he would not able to vote on whether Scotland should leave the Union.

When the UK Prime Minister has such a weak grasp of the principles of democracy we ought to be worried. Does he know that the age of imperialism is over? The UK is a voluntary union between consenting nations. If one of those nations proposes leaving the union that is a matter for the people of that nation and them alone. Certainly the terms, the logistics and the division of assets, debts and capital is something on which all member states should agree but the principles of self-determination must remain inviolable.

The United Kingdom is not the Soviet Union. As members of a free society, if the citizens of Scotland wish to secede from the UK, the rest of us do not have the power of veto. What if Scots vote to leave and the rest of the UK vote not to let them? Do we drive tanks into Galloway? Do we turn Scotland into Chechnya? We have no right to vote to keep them in the Union against their will. I'm astonished that David Cameron should wish that we had. And this is the man who proposes to negotiate our terms of membership with the EU. The mind boggles.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Gimlet

[robbietherimmer]

David Cameron during his visit to Scotland yesterday expressed his regret that as an Englishman he would not able to vote on whether Scotland should leave the Union.

When the UK Prime Minister has such a weak grasp of the principles of democracy we ought to be worried. Does he know that the age of imperialism is over? The UK is a voluntary union between consenting nations. If one of those nations proposes leaving the union that is a matter for the people of that nation and them alone. Certainly the terms, the logistics and the division of assets, debts and capital is something on which all member states should agree but the principles of self-determination must remain inviolable.

The United Kingdom is not the Soviet Union. As members of a free society, if the citizens of Scotland wish to secede from the UK, the rest of us do not have the power of veto. What if Scots vote to leave and the rest of the UK vote not to let them? Do we drive tanks into Galloway? Do we turn Scotland into Chechnya? We have no right to vote to keep them in the Union against their will. I'm astonished that David Cameron should wish that we had. And this is the man who proposes to negotiate our terms of membership with the EU. The mind boggles.

Your spot on there. I spoke today with a client from Aberdeenshire and he said Camerons visit has only angered the scots further and on the back of Osbournes condesending statement the other week has effectively played into the hands of the yes vote as those undecided are infuriated by westminsters handling of matters. DC seemingly flew in, took a helicopter to a rigg for some publicity shots, flew back to dinner with BP`s board and flew home to London whereas snp met with the locals and discussed matters face to face. As an englishman living on the border i have many good connections with scotland and I dont see that changing if they vote yes. Its their choice at the end of the day.

[kent]

i think the numbers speak for themselves, GB paid a terrible price in WW2 but put it into context

 

 

Makes it look like you were safer fighting than being a civilian

[Piebob]

Your spot on there. I spoke today with a client from Aberdeenshire and he said Camerons visit has only angered the scots further and on the back of Osbournes condesending statement the other week has effectively played into the hands of the yes vote as those undecided are infuriated by westminsters handling of matters. DC seemingly flew in, took a helicopter to a rigg for some publicity shots, flew back to dinner with BP`s board and flew home to London whereas snp met with the locals and discussed matters face to face.

 

Yep. I reckon so. And Alex Salmond and his press / spin machine (but pretty much Alex Salmond himself) is extremely shrewd at political point scoring and manoeuvring. I reckon he easily betters the likes of Cameron and Osbourne in those respects, and infact is probably right up there amongst all UK politicians in this area. I realise many of you will disagree but you are not exposed to the Scottish media and news in the way we are in Scotland. If you don't recognise Salmond as this extremely astute politician then you are missing what has been happening in Scotland in my opinion.

 

If you do disagree - why is Cameron so unwilling do have a face to face, live, on-the-fly, televised debate as proposed by Salmond? Surely this referendum is a significant event for the UK that warrants Prime Ministerial attention. And as Gimlet says, it looks like Cameron can't or won't grasp the nettle.

[AVB]

Yep. I reckon so. And Alex Salmond and his press / spin machine (but pretty much Alex Salmond himself) is extremely shrewd at political point scoring and manoeuvring. I reckon he easily betters the likes of Cameron and Osbourne in those respects, and infact is probably right up there amongst all UK politicians in this area. I realise many of you will disagree but you are not exposed to the Scottish media and news in the way we are in Scotland. If you don't recognise Salmond as this extremely astute politician then you are missing what has been happening in Scotland in my opinion.

 

If you do disagree - why is Cameron so unwilling do have a face to face, live, on-the-fly, televised debate as proposed by Salmond? Surely this referendum is a significant event for the UK that warrants Prime Ministerial attention. And as Gimlet says, it looks like Cameron can't or won't grasp the nettle.

Or perhaps Cameron secretly would be happy for the Scots to vote 'yes'. He can sit back and say "better together" but when the Scots vote 'yes' can blame Alastair Darling, rub his hands together and get on with running a slightly smaller UK without the drain of Scotland holding it back.

[Piebob]

Maybe. I guess we'll see him make more flying visits without engaging anyone other than his fellow public schoolboys, and we'll continue to hear many more Osbourne insights.

[Guest rimotu66]

Kent, your graph is wrong, it shows that the UK suffered 0 civilian deaths

[Gimlet]

 

Yep. I reckon so. And Alex Salmond and his press / spin machine (but pretty much Alex Salmond himself) is extremely shrewd at political point scoring and manoeuvring. I reckon he easily betters the likes of Cameron and Osbourne in those respects, and infact is probably right up there amongst all UK politicians in this area. I realise many of you will disagree but you are not exposed to the Scottish media and news in the way we are in Scotland. If you don't recognise Salmond as this extremely astute politician then you are missing what has been happening in Scotland in my opinion.

 

If you do disagree - why is Cameron so unwilling do have a face to face, live, on-the-fly, televised debate as proposed by Salmond? Surely this referendum is a significant event for the UK that warrants Prime Ministerial attention. And as Gimlet says, it looks like Cameron can't or won't grasp the nettle.

 

 

I don't think Cameron understands what's going on. Salmond knows he isn't going to win the vote. I suspect he's never really believed he could. What he's doing is manoeuvring for devo-max which would be democratically objectionable and would entrench the injustices on the West Lothian question and the Barnett Formula and further poison relations between Scotland and England making a yes vote far more likely at a future date.

Cameron really ought to know this. He should be taking Salmond on; he should call his bluff and rather than wringing his hands he should say forthrightly to the people of Scotland, over the head of Salmond, good bye and good luck. If you truly want to be an independent nation outside the UK then we wish you all the very best if that is what you choose and we will do nothing to stand in your way nor we will not hold it against you, but understand that we will emphatically not negotiate devo-max. Make your decision.

Instead Salmond's playing him like a fish and none too subtly and Cameron's allowing himself to be drawn in to a bout of horse-trading. Salmond might be cunning but he's not a patch on what's coming. This is just a warm-up. If this is the best Cameron can do the EU is going to have him for breakfast.

[Kes]

I don't think Cameron understands what's going on. Salmond knows he isn't going to win the vote. I suspect he's never really believed he could. What he's doing is manoeuvring for devo-max which would be democratically objectionable and would entrench the injustices on the West Lothian question and the Barnett Formula and further poison relations between Scotland and England making a yes vote far more likely at a future date.

Cameron really ought to know this. He should be taking Salmond on; he should call his bluff and rather than wringing his hands he should say forthrightly to the people of Scotland, over the head of Salmond, good bye and good luck. If you truly want to be an independent nation outside the UK then we wish you all the very best if that is what you choose and we will do nothing to stand in your way nor we will not hold it against you, but understand that we will emphatically not negotiate devo-max. Make your decision.

Instead Salmond's playing him like a fish and none too subtly and Cameron's allowing himself to be drawn in to a bout of horse-trading. Salmond might be cunning but he's not a patch on what's coming. This is just a warm-up. If this is the best Cameron can do the EU is going to have him for breakfast.

Agreed, but the real point, I suggest is, are the Scottish voters/people as taken in by Salmond or are they 'dreaming the dream'? The reality of being alone is a little less comfortable but it is a choice they must make, for their good or our collective ill. As has been said, I am happy for them to decide their fate and live with it. I would not be happy with devo-max, unless Scottish MP's have no votes at Westminster. Is that Independence ?

[chrisjh]

Kent, your graph is wrong, it shows that the UK suffered 0 civilian deaths

 

the scale is to small UK had about 60 thousand which is dwarfed by the circa 10 million in Russia

[NicholasSabuldihin]

I live on the scotish borders only 3 miles into scotland from england ,, going independant is stupid no way can scotland survive without putting up housing tax and all the pther tax it just going to drive people out the place ,, never the fact that half the people on the border work in the nearst city in england so everytime you have to go to work you get stoped by boarder control with the plans they have to build on the main road leading into and out of scotland !! Keep britian british !

[ack-ack]

I'll be quite upset if the Scotts decide to go it alone, its not in the spirit of the alliance. The UK will no longer be the UK so it affects all of our respective identities before the economics even come into it.

 

I hope a resolution can be made to prevent the Scotts feeling the need to break away. Based on cultural sterotypes I would suggest that if we sent them regular shipments of subsidised alcohol and chips it may be enough to hold the UK together.

[islandgun]

 

 

I hope a resolution can be made to prevent the Scotts feeling the need to break away. Based on cultural sterotypes I would suggest that if we sent them regular shipments of subsidised alcohol and chips it may be enough to hold the UK together.

At last some common sense, I' ll PM you, have you a brand in mind?

[mudpatten]

A friend of mine lives on the Isle of Skye.

 

There are, allegedly, a larger number than usual of properties for sale on the island. Many locals apparently fear a property slump if the vote is "Yes" so they are selling up before their properties become seriously devalued. This, coupled with the current general economic situation seems to suggest that a "Yes" vote could be followed by many leaving the country before the ineviatable rise in taxation and the subsequent slide in property values.