Advantages and Disadvantages of supersonic vs subsonic 22lr

[Ian.S]

Finally got a perm that is FAC rated so time to take the Ruger 10/22 out hunting but wandered besides the noise difference through a moderator what are the advantages and disadvantages between the two types when hunting rabbit?

[Catweazle]

They both kill rabbits, but my own tests show that subsonics are more accurate in my rifle. Of course they do drop more, but at the short ranges I use it's not a problem. For longer shots I use the HMR.

[jam1e]

I have both, but mostly use the subs. With a moderator, the firing pin makes more noise than muzzle blast, and obviously being subsonic, you don't get the loud crack as the bullet breaks the sound barrier. One shot with a high velocity .22lr round and everything runs for cover!

With subs, I've shot one rabbit and the rest just look up, then start munching grass again, so you can pop a few more off before they're spooked. That's as long as the rabbits nerves don't turn the dead rabbit into gymnast!

Better for more built up areas to, you don't spook other animals, or nervous locals....

Edited March 9, 2014 by jam1e

[Blunderbuss]

Noise, obviously. Subs will be near silent through your mod, HV will crack loudly. But also in my experience accuracy, much better in Subs. Some high velocity rounds are only just above the speed of sound, at longer ranges the bullet can slow down and go subsonic. There is supposedly some turbulence when bullets slow through the sound barrier from super to subsonic and it can affect accuracy. I don't know if it's this, or quality control issues, but every HV round I've ever tried has had mediocre accuracy at best, and some have been terrible.

 

Also, if you bear in mind that a 12 ft/lb air rifle will kill a rabbit cleanly with a well placed shot, a 90-100 ft/lb .22 subsonic is more than adequate. The little extra power you get from HV isn't needed in my view, and the downsides outweigh this and the slightly flatter trajectory.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Blunderbuss

[kent]

Hi- velocity rounds use a lighter bullet to achieve the speed within given pressure limits. This means the bullet although faster / flatter and harder hitting is more subject to wind drift than a slower heavier higher BC subsonic round. Accuraccy again normally suffers as the lighter bullet is less suited to the barrel and yes the bullet enters the destabilising effect of the transonic zone (normally around 100 yards give or take)They are also noisy little blighters by comparisom to the practically silent sub.

 

Advantages, they often cycle better in certain semi -auto guns and are worth considering in terms of the extra energy (near double depending which you compare) if you have say a lot of larger than normal rimfire quarry to deal with, thinking in terms of lots of hares damaging crop or hedges etc. Or fox.

 

Personally I feel once you get over subs and std velocity .22 rounds its always better to consider a small centrefire. Even the WMR and HMR don't offer a great deal more in practical terms.

 

I did a fair bit of HV testing last summer and didn't find any that could do better than 1 1/2 " at 100 yards and most were double that in totally great conditions ( I recon on 3/4 -1 1/2" with all subs in my gun except Remington as the norm)

[LeadWasp]

Just out of interest where do match grade rounds with supersonic velocities fit into the accuracy picture? Things like Lapua Midas + or RWS R100? They must be stable out to beyond 100yds for some disciplines. They may be round nosed but they'll still hurt. OK so you're paying 18p a round but that is still cheaper than an HMR (yet they are only SG cartridge prices). If they were accurate they'd be worth it surely notwithstanding the noise?

[kent]

Just out of interest where do match grade rounds with supersonic velocities fit into the accuracy picture? Things like Lapua Midas + or RWS R100? They must be stable out to beyond 100yds for some disciplines. They may be round nosed but they'll still hurt. OK so you're paying 18p a round but that is still cheaper than an HMR (yet they are only SG cartridge prices). If they were accurate they'd be worth it surely notwithstanding the noise?

 

Not as accurate as subs. If you read my post above I mention the transonic zone, what this is the point the supersonic comes back towards the sound barrier it has a de-stabilising effect on any bullet and it is expected to occur at just before 100 yards with the .22 lr HV. If you also add increased windages its appreciably less accurate at 100 yards than a good sub. On a good day without any group spoiling winds I shouldn't expect better than 1 1/2" with the very best HV and yet I should expect good subsonic to place inside 1", sure you might get a group better than 1 1/2" but I should look at that more as fluke if you put enough rounds down range with the LR subs you will also get some even more impressive little fleas bum clusters. As much as 3" might be the best for less favoured HV or if you were getting a bit of wind that day using high grade ones as the light HV bullet really does suffer its effect worse than the sub. in winds you wont be able to call without flags.

 

In the eyes of many (myself included) a good .22 LR with subsonic is already a match for the HMR at 100 yards (windages are near enough the same) you just need to account for the trajectory drop (6-8 MOA) at 100yards from a zero around 50 yards. A HMR just has a flatter trajectory and the ability to be comfortably supersonic through all its usual range window. The ability to stay on a rabbits head from 30-115 yards with a single set zero on trajectory is what the HMR is all about

[Underdog]

I like hv rounds...and they dont always use a lighter bullet!

Whilst we think subs are quiet to a bunny they are not! In my experience an experienced rabbit colony will hear the muffled pop, a hissing bullet, an impact and draw a line straight to you....then they are gone the opposite way!.

A sonic crack often confuses for a second shot.

A good hv will flatten your traj some assisting any range error. Help in the wind a little and whack a fox should you bump in one.

U.

[kent]

I like hv rounds...and they dont always use a lighter bullet!

Whilst we think subs are quiet to a bunny they are not! In my experience an experienced rabbit colony will hear the muffled pop, a hissing bullet, an impact and draw a line straight to you....then they are gone the opposite way!.

A sonic crack often confuses for a second shot.

A good hv will flatten your traj some assisting any range error. Help in the wind a little and whack a fox should you bump in one.

U.

 

No way am I having a bunny can learn what a hissing bullet coming towards them sounds like and learn fear it. it takes 0.05 seconds for a sub to travel 50 yards, does it make any sound at all in flight anyhow? Having watched deer being intentionally moved towards a hidden shooter by shooting a moderated deer rifle into ground behind them I am very sceptical of this theory you make UD because when you get shot over with supersonic rounds they do crack and that crack comes before any muzzle blast so I fail to see why they shouldn't run the other way. In the case of a sub if you ever get chance to fire one with safety into the air with a good moderator it is seriously quiet and unthreatening to quarry until the thump of the bullet hitting its mark (the idea is of course for it to be too late at that stage) I can equate it only to noisy pin fall on a dry fire

 

true High Velocity or even Hyper Velocity (never found a set designation as to were this level stands(,so if someone gives us measly gains in velocity with a 40 excuse my bold statement with that fact HV are lighter but you can get supersonic 40 grain rounds I grant you. a .22 lr is quite limited how fast it can push a 40 grain bullet by the chamber pressure. Increases in speed mean far less than many think on wind allowances, no better an example exists is the .22 sub against a HMR at 100 yards, with the exception of a few poor BC .22's your looking at roughly 3 1/2" against 4" at 100 yards (I have yet to meet the man that can call that difference) Or better still the .22 mag which drifts more than both, its bullet shape not diameter not so much speed, in short its hard to outrun wind deflection many, many examples of this exist

Edited April 14, 2014 by kent

[LeadWasp]

 

Not as accurate as subs. If you read my post above I mention the transonic zone, what this is the point the supersonic comes back towards the sound barrier it has a de-stabilising effect on any bullet and it is expected to occur at just before 100 yards with the .22 lr HV. If you also add increased windages its appreciably less accurate at 100 yards than a good sub. On a good day without any group spoiling winds I shouldn't expect better than 1 1/2" with the very best HV and yet I should expect good subsonic to place inside 1", sure you might get a group better than 1 1/2" but I should look at that more as fluke if you put enough rounds down range with the LR subs you will also get some even more impressive little fleas bum clusters. As much as 3" might be the best for less favoured HV or if you were getting a bit of wind that day using high grade ones as the light HV bullet really does suffer its effect worse than the sub. in winds you wont be able to call without flags.

 

In the eyes of many (myself included) a good .22 LR with subsonic is already a match for the HMR at 100 yards (windages are near enough the same) you just need to account for the trajectory drop (6-8 MOA) at 100yards from a zero around 50 yards. A HMR just has a flatter trajectory and the ability to be comfortably supersonic through all its usual range window. The ability to stay on a rabbits head from 30-115 yards with a single set zero on trajectory is what the HMR is all about

 

Hi Kent

 

I did read your post - but I was interested to see specifically if match ammunition for folk shooting out to 100yds behaved differently to field stuff. People's priorities are different and if my shooting friends are anything to go by there are obsessed with finding the cheapest ammunition they can rather than a healthy diet for their guns. Target folk have different desires. The difference in uniformity and shape between the two types is obvious enough, long before getting into loading issues, and a quality repeatable projectile is going to fly better than a wonky old sub (most of them are pretty rough). If it is being used for competetative shooting then I would have thought that it would drop through its critical velocity range much further out in order to be accurate enough. You get 40g match ammunition, so if it is inaccurate why is it used when subs are that good?

 

Not having a 'go'...just wanting to understand

 

cheers

[Catweazle]

The "match" ammo that I have used has all been subsonic. Through my .22 is it more accurate than hollow point subs, but not by much, and the extra thump of the hollow point is useful.

[TIDES EDGE]

Subsonic every time ,I have still got half a box of hv that I brought with the rifle 30years ago never could get on with them and far to noisey.

[kent]

 

Hi Kent

 

I did read your post - but I was interested to see specifically if match ammunition for folk shooting out to 100yds behaved differently to field stuff. People's priorities are different and if my shooting friends are anything to go by there are obsessed with finding the cheapest ammunition they can rather than a healthy diet for their guns. Target folk have different desires. The difference in uniformity and shape between the two types is obvious enough, long before getting into loading issues, and a quality repeatable projectile is going to fly better than a wonky old sub (most of them are pretty rough). If it is being used for competetative shooting then I would have thought that it would drop through its critical velocity range much further out in order to be accurate enough. You get 40g match ammunition, so if it is inaccurate why is it used when subs are that good?

 

Not having a 'go'...just wanting to understand

 

cheers

 

 

The very best match ammo runs as a fast sub, when I have tested match against good quality subs there is the slightest gain with match stuff. I think this is perhaps due to the lack of any hole in the nose? Anyhow its very slight difference! Wonky old sub? you maybe need to look at quality subsonics Like SK, RWS etc. there is a massive difference if you use rubbish subs once you get out some even more so

[Underdog]

 

No way am I having a bunny can learn what a hissing bullet coming towards them sounds like and learn fear it. it takes 0.05 seconds for a sub to travel 50 yards, does it make any sound at all in flight anyhow? Having watched deer being intentionally moved towards a hidden shooter by shooting a moderated deer rifle into ground behind them I am very sceptical of this theory you make UD because when you get shot over with supersonic rounds they do crack and that crack comes before any muzzle blast so I fail to see why they shouldn't run the other way. In the case of a sub if you ever get chance to fire one with safety into the air with a good moderator it is seriously quiet and unthreatening to quarry until the thump of the bullet hitting its mark (the idea is of course for it to be too late at that stage) I can equate it only to noisy pin fall on a dry fire

 

true High Velocity or even Hyper Velocity (never found a set designation as to were this level stands(,so if someone gives us measly gains in velocity with a 40 excuse my bold statement with that fact HV are lighter but you can get supersonic 40 grain rounds I grant you. a .22 lr is quite limited how fast it can push a 40 grain bullet by the chamber pressure. Increases in speed mean far less than many think on wind allowances, no better an example exists is the .22 sub against a HMR at 100 yards, with the exception of a few poor BC .22's your looking at roughly 3 1/2" against 4" at 100 yards (I have yet to meet the man that can call that difference) Or better still the .22 mag which drifts more than both, its bullet shape not diameter not so much speed, in short its hard to outrun wind deflection many, many examples of this exist

You stay sceptical if you wish Kent how ever my posting is based on years of experience in my local area.

You may be assuming on a rabbit, you could possibly be assuming a rabbit is a stupid dumb animal. I however have come to respect the humble little rabbit and after over 30years of hunting and observing them have come to a very different opinion than most....maybe!

 

In my observing they do learn and they can hear a lot better than us. A sub sonic bullet report or hiss from a traveling bullet and the impact give them a direction that the danger is coming from...especially silenced guns. It matters not Kent if you can not hear the bullet, your ears I hope do not resemble a rabbits. Besides part of the bullets loss in energy is a change in energy, some of which is energy converted to sound energy.....where do you think the crack comes from when a bullet breaks the speed of sound! It is the sound of the bullet in the air that is broken!

I can hear bullets traveling through air in the right conditions!

 

A sonic crack in amongst savvy rabbits is all but indiscernible as to where it came from sometimes causing a second possible chance via confusion!

 

As I said these are my findings, not assumptions or something dreamt or read about in an anecdotal comic!

 

CCI make two HV HP around 36grns, Federal too, Eley HV is there same subbie bullet. Remington too. RWS HV HP was 40grn.

 

Hyper 22 ammo is often classes as above 1400fps and was often achieved with bullet weights below 33grns besides other methods.

 

Each to their own. But this guy has been there and got the shirt

 

U.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Underdog

[colin lad]

i too like underdog believe a rabbit can hear a bullet, but not the one being shot as that will be a dead rabbit before it hears anything but other rabbits in the near vicinity will,

i was told by someone that the lr with subs will scare as much when it hits it's target as the hmr as the sonic crack of the hmr confuses them,

at 1st i thought it strange but after shooting both i am leaning towards this thought,

to try this out i once sat behind a safe barrier 40 yards down range while a friend shot a further 10 yards on at a target sat in a sand bunker and you can certainly hear the lr sub as it fizzies past and then the thud as it hits it's target,

then the hmr was shot and yes it's a lot louder but you don't hear the bullet or the target impact just the loud crack and the noise sound as though it could of come from anywhere,

if a human can hear a bullet then i am sure a rabbit with it's good hearing most certainly can.

 

colin

[LeadWasp]

 

 

The very best match ammo runs as a fast sub, when I have tested match against good quality subs there is the slightest gain with match stuff. I think this is perhaps due to the lack of any hole in the nose? Anyhow its very slight difference! Wonky old sub? you maybe need to look at quality subsonics Like SK, RWS etc. there is a massive difference if you use rubbish subs once you get out some even more so

Hi Kent - by 'wonky old sub' I was referring to a couple types from well known brands from across the pond. I agree the RWS projectile for example is much better made. The residue is a bit gritty tho'.

[kent]

Have shot enough Rabbits with subs over enough years to disagree, they have good hearing but this is getting a bit of a farce talking of 30 years spent in the field what if I said I started 40 years ago do I know more? Does my 84 yr old neighbour? , The bullet passed over its head does it? into clear air or a backstop? like a say there is a big thump as it strikes its buddy or the backstop and yeah they often bolt at that but it don't hear it coming its too quick and it hasn't the intellect to connect such a thing to danger. So one 40grain so called HV, 10% less is quite relevant as is shape compare a 40 grain v-max with a 35 grn v-max in .224 for instance (far easier than .22 rf BCs) If the RWS carries the same bullet as the sub it could be good as that is in the wind, if its only going 200 fps faster though it wont add up to a hill of beans on windage allowances though.

Intellect and leaning capacity of a rabbit exists but it aint a brain box as we have seen on a recent thread, if they were lamp shyness ie. the stage were they vacate the field at first flash across at a distance might happen a lot sooner than it does

[Underdog]

Ok Kent, what ever.

 

So are you actually saying you started 40years ago or not?

[Whitebridges]

You all need to listen to Kent because what he says on every issue raised on this forum is right according to the gospel of Kent.

End of.

BTW I've been shooting rabbits with a .22 for 43 years.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Whitebridges

[39TDS]

Based on my 44 years of rabbit shooting experience.

Subs are more accurate and seem to be more consistent. I prefer subs.

HV or hyper velocity hurt my ears but they definitely hit the rabbits harder and knock them deader than subs. I still prefer subs.

Both subs and hv rounds can confuse the rabbits, many is the time I have had 3 or more goes at the same rabbit.

No doubt you will take the p but if I get the range wrong and the bullet falls short the rabbit just looks at me, if i get it wrong and it goes over his head he ducks. 90%, based on that observation the second round gets him.

[Underdog]

Nowt wrong with subs at all. Most my ammo is subs. My current rifle has no silencer on it and I do no worse than all the silenced rifles before it. So a subbie still makes a considerable noise from my barrel.

Every one is entitled to thier choice and no one is wrong!

Some folk get all thier panties twisted up and attempt to poo poo someones experience.

I only said I like HV 22 ammo!

 

U.

[kent]

Ok Kent, what ever.

 

So are you actually saying you started 40years ago or not?

 

its irrelevant really, my comments were about beating wind with subs (which you cannot ) and rabbits hearing a hissing bullet on route. If you want to know my first trip out rabbiting was made before my first day at school but that was with ferrets and dogs (I was I bit too young to be carrying a firearm) that was over 40 yrs ago and I was being told exactly what I had to do in no uncertain terms by my dad and uncle. its easy to say I have been doing this for this or that long on a forum, within reason it means little as for instance I haven't owned a lurcher for about 15 years now, a ferret for 3-4 years. Lets stick to facts and debate please eh? Years mean little and are too easily blagged with only a grain of truth to support a weak point

[colin lad]

Kent my comment of the fizz you can hear is heard by other rabbit's not the one you shoot as that will be dead before it hears anything,

Or a miss going past it,

if you think that a bullet makes no noise as it travels through the air even a sub then in this case your are wrong

 

Colin

[Underdog]

 

its irrelevant really, my comments were about beating wind with subs (which you cannot ) and rabbits hearing a hissing bullet on route. If you want to know my first trip out rabbiting was made before my first day at school but that was with ferrets and dogs (I was I bit too young to be carrying a firearm) that was over 40 yrs ago and I was being told exactly what I had to do in no uncertain terms by my dad and uncle. its easy to say I have been doing this for this or that long on a forum, within reason it means little as for instance I haven't owned a lurcher for about 15 years now, a ferret for 3-4 years. Lets stick to facts and debate please eh? Years mean little and are too easily blagged with only a grain of truth to support a weak point

I don't recall the OP asking for a debate Kent, I do recall him asking for opinions in a round about way. I did not participate in order to have my opinion or in my case experience and observations to be trampled on. You being sceptical of my findings is not sticking to facts Kent, it is assuming, assuming you know better!

 

U.

[kent]

Kent my comment of the fizz you can hear is heard by other rabbit's not the one you shoot as that will be dead before it hears anything,

Or a miss going past it,

if you think that a bullet makes no noise as it travels through the air even a sub then in this case your are wrong

 

Colin

its not that I don't think a rabbit can hear the "fizz" or whatever, its just the scariest factor is the thump and its mate twitching on the floor once the bullet gets there which occurs milliseconds after I doubt the rabbit could even separate the two audibility wise I am sure the two blend if the fizz is heard, hence detect not hear. Can it learn from a "fizz" ? IMO no! Can it learn that a two legged beasty is responsible for killing its kin with a "thump thing" yes it can just like it will eventually learn that the lamp beam means run for home.

talk of noisy sub bullets in flight "fizzing" being anything like as scary as the crack of a HV? No the two don't compare, sharp noises like that scare things that are under no danger whatsoever. If you think otherwise that's just fine, all said and done the OP is looking for advantages and disadvantages of supersonic v subsonic .22 lr