Dekers Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Help me out please! An idle moment and something that has puzzled me for a while, and comes to mind as I throw another bottle in the freezer. I have two freezers, both very similar sizes, one that runs circa -20c and the other circa -12c. Lets assume they are both at a constant temperature and both have very similar contents. I like my White and Rose wine well chilled, so it is not uncommon I throw a bottle in the freezer for a while before opening to drop the temperature quickly. Question Which freezer should chill the wine quickest? On the basis I don't even want it at zero, I don't see it should make any difference, but history has showed me the -20 freezer chills quicker, I don't see it should make any difference if I'm looking at a temperature of +4c to +5c! It isn't my imagination, the -20 freezer chills quicker to +4c or +5c but why, the -12c freezer is still much colder than I want but is slower!? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 I would have thought that the difference in temperature between the wine and the freezer would make a difference, hence the colder freezer 'loses' energy less readily than the other, hence the difference in times. Not sure though, this is just an idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatherandSon Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 There is a theory called the Mpemba effect whereas a warmer liquid will chill quicker than an already cool liquid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambsman Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Bigger thermal gradient hence faster rate of transfer? Edited April 5, 2014 by Cambsman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Because heat travels towards cold-the colder the mass to which the heat is applied-the faster the transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcock11 Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Help me out please! An idle moment and something that has puzzled me for a while, and comes to mind as I throw another bottle in the freezer. I have two freezers, both very similar sizes, one that runs circa -20c and the other circa -12c. Lets assume they are both at a constant temperature and both have very similar contents. I like my White and Rose wine well chilled, so it is not uncommon I throw a bottle in the freezer for a while before opening to drop the temperature quickly. Question Which freezer should chill the wine quickest? On the basis I don't even want it at zero, I don't see it should make any difference, but history has showed me the -20 freezer chills quicker, I don't see it should make any difference if I'm looking at a temperature of +4c to +5c! It isn't my imagination, the -20 freezer chills quicker to +4c or +5c but why, the -12c freezer is still much colder than I want but is slower!? Thank you! I am no expert on the technical side but am surprised that you can even taste [let alone appreciate] the wine at + 4 C or + 5 C. I worked in the wine trade for many many years and the perceived wisdom is that somewhere between + 8 C and + 12 C is about right, depending on what you are drinking. The solution we have is that we have a "drinks fridge" which should be just that and contain a variety of bottles, this obviating the freezer ploy for rapid chilling. Sometimes senior management have other ideas and I find that the wine is out and yet more food is in! Other times, a particular wine is not in the fridge and so we have to use the freezer or else I find that one of the sleeves - we use vacuvin - is excellent and is very rapid http://reviews.sainsburys.co.uk/2678-en_gb/107334852/reviews.htm I don't know if it has happened to you but I have sometimes forgotten that maybe I have put two bottles in the freezer and we have only drunk one. If the wine is fairly low alcohol, there is a danger that it can freeze and the bottle will shatter - a big mess and a waste of good wine...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted April 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) I am no expert on the technical side but am surprised that you can even taste [let alone appreciate] the wine at + 4 C or + 5 C. I worked in the wine trade for many many years and the perceived wisdom is that somewhere between + 8 C and + 12 C is about right, depending on what you are drinking. The solution we have is that we have a "drinks fridge" which should be just that and contain a variety of bottles, this obviating the freezer ploy for rapid chilling. Sometimes senior management have other ideas and I find that the wine is out and yet more food is in! Other times, a particular wine is not in the fridge and so we have to use the freezer or else I find that one of the sleeves - we use vacuvin - is excellent and is very rapid http://reviews.sainsburys.co.uk/2678-en_gb/107334852/reviews.htm I don't know if it has happened to you but I have sometimes forgotten that maybe I have put two bottles in the freezer and we have only drunk one. If the wine is fairly low alcohol, there is a danger that it can freeze and the bottle will shatter - a big mess and a waste of good wine...... Thank you, still don't understand why the -20 Freezer chills quicker to +4c or +5c than the -12 freezer? Edited April 5, 2014 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytree Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Don't think! Just put a bottle in each and drink the coldest one first. How easy is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Are they the same make of freezer? Might just be one has a more efficient chiller unit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Think of a little cup of coffee in a freezing cold ice covered room, the little cup of coffee wants to heat the whole room to the same temperature, it can't help it as the laws of physics say it must. The little cup of coffee that could eh? No. Not quite it's never going to do it and thermal dynamics will make sure of that but will also make sure it expands its energy (heat) on trying. Now imagine a drop of the core of the Sun in that cup, now we''re getting there eh? Which one will heat the room the fastest? Same thing with cold stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 could it be that the things already in the freezer are colder, which in turn would reduce the temperature quicker, in the same way that freezers work better when food stuff level is kept high, perhaps the only way to find out would be to have two empty freezers set at different temperatures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
station Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Just buy a bigger fridge and ensure there are at least 6 bottles of white / rose in it at any time. This is what we do plus there's always a few more cases in the garage sat on the cold concert floor. Reds are kept in a 12 bottle rack in the kitchen with a spare case or two in the utility room. Better to have than to want. ATB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted April 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Just buy a bigger fridge and ensure there are at least 6 bottles of white / rose in it at any time. This is what we do plus there's always a few more cases in the garage sat on the cold concert floor. Reds are kept in a 12 bottle rack in the kitchen with a spare case or two in the utility room. Better to have than to want. ATB. 12-14 bottles of wine in my Fridge at any given time plus plenty of lager/beer, never the bottle someone wants though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bala Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Thats it, i have had enough of this, i am going to open another bottle of rioja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcock11 Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Thank you, still don't understand why the -20 Freezer chills quicker to +4c or +5c than the -12 freezer? With all due respect, I think you are seeking the wrong answer to the wrong question as far as your white or rose wine is concerned. Who cares [least of all you] which of your two freezers chills your wine down more quickly. I and others such as you when you are organised and Station are suggesting an entirely reasonable scenario where you do not need to put your wines into a freezer. It is exactly the same at the opposite at end of the scale with red wine. If you are unprepared and need to bring it out of your cellar, garage etc, then you are equally in trouble - putting it on the Aga, the stove, the radiator or - heaven forbid in a bowl of hot water or whatever will ruin it just as much as putting a white in the freezer. The answer - it truly is - is to try and anticipate. Keep some white & rose wines in a dedicated fridge [if possible] and by the way, rose is a bit of non starter in the Northern Ireland climate - I brought 6 cases back from Bordeaux a few years ago and could only face drinking them last June/July when we had unheard of temperatures of 29 C for three weeks on the trot - never again. Then keep some reds in an ambient and calm part of your house [out of direct sunlight and avoiding great fluctuations of temperature - NOT in a cupboard under the stairs if they are any good]. Invest in some wine racks if you have space to lay your wine down -not necessary if you are buying wines for every day drinking and, by the way, screw caps these days are brilliant and as good as cork and better than those ghastly rubber or composition corks. So, I promise you that if you follow my advice from this and my previous post, you should have no problems whatsoever in having the right wine at the right temperature every time. If you are being scientific and STILL wondering which freezer will ruin your wine more quickly, then I just cannot help you - more is the pity! Wine should be treated with respect - it is made with love and care by people who are akin to farmers - they have a passion and deserve a respect for what they do. Edited April 5, 2014 by woodcock11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodo123 Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 Everything has a heat transfer coefficient. This is basically the rate that heat can be transferred to/from a material/object. The temperature differential (delta t1-t2) between freezer and bottle will effect the rate the energy is transferred up to the point that the material will reach maximum transfer rate. When it's at maximum transfer rate the only thing you can do is wait. May sound ridicules but it's true. Obviously other things will effect it like freezer layout, airflow etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 One thing I will say is glass is a pretty good insulator I have been told wrapping a wet paper towl round a glass bottle before chilling will speed up the chilling of the contents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodo123 Posted April 6, 2014 Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 One thing I will say is glass is a pretty good insulator I have been told wrapping a wet paper towl round a glass bottle before chilling will speed up the chilling of the contents. This will increase the surface area increasing heat transfer rate. However the water will need to lose latent heat to turn to ice. So I guess it's a play off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted April 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 With all due respect, I think you are seeking the wrong answer to the wrong question as far as your white or rose wine is concerned. Who cares [least of all you] which of your two freezers chills your wine down more quickly. I and others such as you when you are organised and Station are suggesting an entirely reasonable scenario where you do not need to put your wines into a freezer. It is exactly the same at the opposite at end of the scale with red wine. If you are unprepared and need to bring it out of your cellar, garage etc, then you are equally in trouble - putting it on the Aga, the stove, the radiator or - heaven forbid in a bowl of hot water or whatever will ruin it just as much as putting a white in the freezer. The answer - it truly is - is to try and anticipate. Keep some white & rose wines in a dedicated fridge [if possible] and by the way, rose is a bit of non starter in the Northern Ireland climate - I brought 6 cases back from Bordeaux a few years ago and could only face drinking them last June/July when we had unheard of temperatures of 29 C for three weeks on the trot - never again. Then keep some reds in an ambient and calm part of your house [out of direct sunlight and avoiding great fluctuations of temperature - NOT in a cupboard under the stairs if they are any good]. Invest in some wine racks if you have space to lay your wine down -not necessary if you are buying wines for every day drinking and, by the way, screw caps these days are brilliant and as good as cork and better than those ghastly rubber or composition corks. So, I promise you that if you follow my advice from this and my previous post, you should have no problems whatsoever in having the right wine at the right temperature every time. If you are being scientific and STILL wondering which freezer will ruin your wine more quickly, then I just cannot help you - more is the pity! Wine should be treated with respect - it is made with love and care by people who are akin to farmers - they have a passion and deserve a respect for what they do. Thank you, still don't understand why the -20 Freezer chills quicker to +4c or +5c than the -12 freezer? Its a simple scientific question, I don't need a lesson in how to store Red wine or what temperature someone else decided I should drink my wine at. With all due respect I don't give a **** who made it and what they did with it, I bought it and drink it the way I want it! Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted April 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 Everything has a heat transfer coefficient. This is basically the rate that heat can be transferred to/from a material/object. The temperature differential (delta t1-t2) between freezer and bottle will effect the rate the energy is transferred up to the point that the material will reach maximum transfer rate. When it's at maximum transfer rate the only thing you can do is wait. May sound ridicules but it's true. Obviously other things will effect it like freezer layout, airflow etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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