if you were me

[deershooter]

What George needs to improve his range is mid priced good quality shells and some top snobby shells

 

1, a good 28 gram clay load in plastic 8 &7.5 shot equal to Eley superbs ,Hull pro one, White gold ,F Blacks

2, 28 gram 7.5 felt wad no plastic obituator

3 top end clay load long brass 28 gram plastic wad in 8 -7.5 -7 -6 shot these would cover game and pigeons as well

 

Deershooter

[TriBsa]

the 28g#7 and the 30g #6 overlap.

both are light game shells.

 

i make my own and i buy shells. its no secret. but i still dont see the logic in making a product thats going to compete with his other products.

 

there is very little difference between 28grams and 32grams really.maybe a little bit of lead. most powders were designed to run 32g lead in 12gauge anyway, so it may actually be more economical to load 32g !

 

if he makes a 1oz fibre #7, his 32g loads will suffer primarily his #6 game loads.

people already have the choice of shooting 7.5 fibre at stuff. and people are. how many threads do we have 7.5 vs 6?

 

fine 1oz 7s will be sold, but if they are competatively priced thats going to hit his other shells sales for sure. and the other shells in the market.

 

say they become £150/k, pigeon loads are hulls spec pigeon...£250. thats a big discrepency.

 

Yes. I'd concentrate on a Proper Pigeon cartridge. No 6 Shot 32G. No chasing silly speeds. Fibre only as shooters are hardly going to get farmers asking them to shoot plastic so why the choice? Reap the benefits of economies of scale and don't confuse shooters with alternative loads/wads/speeds. Every time you stop the machine to reset it for another specification you lose time and efficiency. Go for the one specialist market where it's going to be easiest to undercut the big boys. If you're hitting the right price point shooters will be asking for your cartridges in their local gunshop. K.I.S.S. Henry Ford "any colour you like as long as it's black". Once you've got the dealers buying from you, you have regular communication and you can easily introduce them to other products - simples. Give serious thought to stopping selling direct (sorry guy's but he did ask) it upsets your dealer channel.

Edited August 7, 2014 by TriBsa

[12boreblue]

You can do this in many ways, for instance introduce a loss leader product to undercut the main suppliers, then the gun shop will come a running because we will want them!. Contact CPSA and BASC and advertise in their magazines, Pick a pro and sponsor them! offer online sales, think outside the box, try something different, for instance sell online and have an agreement to pick up at local shops, we buy online you deliver to the shop and trader gets a little commission. Like an RFD? And if you really want to make it big, commission a research centre to invent/find an alternative to lead!!! Then one day you will be a millionaire. Another thing would be monthly pick up points at local shooting grounds, they would love it as people might stay and shoot and customer would love it as they could buy and collect at same time!

[12boreblue]

...............Or have franchises around the country that buy from you and sell locally, not sure if you need a special licence and storage though!.

[propercartridges]

well thank you all people for you input I ended up in margate via surrey and hants and johanne done the other side birming ham liecster and Kidderminster total of 39 000 between 2 Toyota hiluxes this weekend then kilhope for the grouse boys then Kirby steven I done 580 miles on sunday but its working total new people this weekend was 14 between us thanks once again and keep those ideas coming like granddad used to say costs nowt to watch and nowt to listern thank you all all we need now is some new freds telling people what they r like honest reports now no porkys thanks george

[rimmie]

Hi George, did you drop carts off at a shop in margate or to someone

[propercartridges]

yes a chap on here got them soulboy read his report on excited to meet George thanks rimmie keep in touch thanks george

[pegasus bridge]

In reply 32g 5s

Gets my vote too this, am I right in thinking you don't charge a premium for. Larger shot sizes (or have I imagined this!)

 

For what it's worth George , I'll make a point of asking for your carts the next time I'm in a gunshop.

 

Edit - some savvy use of social media would help your product reach more people.

Edited August 12, 2014 by pegasus bridge

[rimmie]

Just being nosey, I live not even 5 minutes from margate, I was going to order some carts of you but got laid off from work a while ago, so didn't bother. I will hopefully be starting a new job in London in the next couple of weeks so will get some then.

[shoot and be safe]

Forget trying to get into rfd's. Sort out your Web page, listing all your carts with prices and data. That way when people hear good reports they know they can find them easily. Basically you become everybody's local cartridge supplier. All you need is a few good feedback posts on hear and people will try. But if they have to travel past the local gun shop to one 3 times the distance away, they won't (I know I wouldn't).

 

Also make a 65mm case option. A lot of older guns are two and a half inch and don't take the 67mm options. My English SxS doesn't and this meant I had to buy what the shop had in 65mm, not my preferred choice.

 

As already said, look into clay loads, yes there isn't much profit in them but if you make and sell enough you will make something. For example if a shooter uses 500 game carts per season and your profit is say £20/1000, all you make out of that shooter is £10. But the same shooter also shoots 100clays every week (5000/year) and you only make £5/1000 profit you make £25 out of the guy. Your profit for clays is 2.5 times greater than just supplying game loads (it's all about volume)

 

Having said all that and if you only want to do game loads, maybe contact shoots, wildfowling clubs ect with a cartridge personalised for them (shoot/club name on the cartridges)

 

I wish you luck in your venture and hope to maybe use them soon.

[propercartridges]

thanks for that now I am going to make fibre in 28 gram in 5 and 6 and 7 due to the high demand starting to do a few tests today I do make a 28 gram in 7.5but that was in 70mm these will be in 67 mm keep in touch thanks george

[propercartridges]

Gets my vote too this, am I right in thinking you don't charge a premium for. Larger shot sizes (or have I imagined this!)

 

For what it's worth George , I'll make a point of asking for your carts the next time I'm in a gunshop.

 

Edit - some savvy use of social media would help your product reach more people.

mr bridge I must pass you 3 times a month please pm me with your phone number always up and down the old a1 thanks george

[propercartridges]

Forget trying to get into rfd's. Sort out your Web page, listing all your carts with prices and data. That way when people hear good reports they know they can find them easily. Basically you become everybody's local cartridge supplier. All you need is a few good feedback posts on hear and people will try. But if they have to travel past the local gun shop to one 3 times the distance away, they won't (I know I wouldn't).

 

Also make a 65mm case option. A lot of older guns are two and a half inch and don't take the 67mm options. My English SxS doesn't and this meant I had to buy what the shop had in 65mm, not my preferred choice.

 

As already said, look into clay loads, yes there isn't much profit in them but if you make and sell enough you will make something. For example if a shooter uses 500 game carts per season and your profit is say £20/1000, all you make out of that shooter is £10. But the same shooter also shoots 100clays every week (5000/year) and you only make £5/1000 profit you make £25 out of the guy. Your profit for clays is 2.5 times greater than just supplying game loads (it's all about volume)

 

Having said all that and if you only want to do game loads, maybe contact shoots, wildfowling clubs ect with a cartridge personalised for them (shoot/club name on the cartridges)

 

I wish you luck in your venture and hope to maybe use them soon.

coming to the wirrel and north wales soon pm me your tel number please may be able to catch up thanks george

[malkiserow]

Another thought for your George, and just for PR and getting them out there .........a while back Field Sports Britain gave some youngsters a day shooting, trying different types etc. how about sponsoring one of these day with free cartridges which will allow the likes of Andy Crow and Roy Lupton to try them also?

I had thought you were coming to see me when down South?

 

Me also

[propercartridges]

I had thought you were coming to see me when down South?

 

Another thought for your George, and just for PR and getting them out there .........a while back Field Sports Britain gave some youngsters a day shooting, trying different types etc. how about sponsoring one of these day with free cartridges which will allow the likes of Andy Crow and Roy Lupton to try them also?

 

Me also

sorry boys was so full had to split into 2 jo went Birmingham and that way I headed to margate don't worry soon thanks george

[mick miller]

George, if you need a website that can handle sales and with seo that will put you in the top ten of Google's search engine pm me and I'll send you some examples. I'm a graphic designer with over 25 years experience in TV, Web, print and advertising.

Can't see why you cannot sell online just as just cartridges do but consider small but well designed targeted ads in the usual publications.

Finding a young, promising shooter(s) on the local club circuit or offering to clay grounds first might be a way to gain greater exposure.

Edited August 13, 2014 by mick miller

[propercartridges]

George, if you need a website that can handle sales and with seo that will put you in the top ten of Google's search engine pm me and I'll send you some examples. I'm a graphic designer with over 25 years experience in TV, Web, print and advertising.

 

Can't see why you cannot sell online just as just cartridges do but consider small but we'll designed targeted ads in the usual publications.

 

Finding a young, promising shooter(s) on the local club circuit or offering to clay grounds first might be a way to gain greater exposure.

hi mick and thanks for that what exactly I am doing appears to be working but a lot of miles but that does not bother me I used to drive from dyce in Aberdeen with a 40 foot artic and Volvo f 89 back in 1976 to reggio Calabria right on the toe of italy for malta with it then going to Libya there and back in 8 days so I would say the mileage in uk does not bother me plus you get a bit shooting chucked in I realy want to move at my own speed what I don't do this season believe me I will be ready for next thanks george

[dingo45]

To get any enterprise off the ground you need a product that will sell in your case sell in volume, cheaper ,eye catching,clean burning,readily available.

Try to keep your production very basic i.e 3 shot sizes plastic or fiber.

Many shooters are switching to 20 gauge .Try offering 12 gauge in 7/8 and 1ounce remember how popular the Impax was.

Choose a very short name for your product that will make it be very potent and hard to forget register this name as your property,

This is important get advice at local chamber of commerce.

Have all printed cartons, boxes, cartridges, In Eye catching form keep it very simple in one colour only.

If you choose a logo make it easy for the printers, register it also.

Have a web site.

Get your product reviewed.

Make it available at shows venues etc - if it is a good product it will sell.

Like any venture it will require a little luck - try not to run around at every sign of interest in your product think first.

Atb dingo45.

[aris]

Surely there must be economies of scale when it comes to delivery. For instance, delivering 15,000 cartridges - what would that cost? Now, not many individuals will buy 15,000 pigeon cartridges for themselves, but a group of like-minded people within 20 miles of each other might. All you need to do is find these like-minded people within a specified distance from each other, and arrange a group buy with delivery to one of them. Yes there is the issue of people reneging on their commitment to buy - but that is unlikely to happen if you pre-pay. Certainly a website could be crafted which would facilitate this - both the pre-payment, and finding the group-buyers in a particular area.

[ChrisAsh]

Guys. Mail order is fine, but it costs. It costs alot. It costs alot more than JC charge. Speak to Webber. He can't send his for less than about 30 pounds.

JC and others are subsidising the carriage. They work out of barns and units, with less overheads as shops and others. At Georges published prices, the prices everyone wants to pay, there is no subsidy for transport. George wants say 189 collected on the door, which is why everyone wants to know. If he said 35 to post, people would moan and not buy. Equally, if he said 210 and 10 post, many more would just go down to the local shop and buy a slab for 220 odd. George has a problem in as much as there is no real margin for post, or profit. He can't spend 5 days a week delivering these all over the UK as he would never make any.

He does need a web site, but in all real business scense, they will need to be a little dearer.

Delivery costs are just down to volume of deliveries, as a e-commerce site we get very large discounts for sending over a certain number a day, you can also get even cheaper with some couriers if you deliver to the depot, with my goods up to 31 kilo for next day at just over £5.00 its hard to see how JC is subsidizing at £15.00 per thousand. 5 or 6 boxes a day forget it 40+ and they negotiate

[aris]

Cartridges and other hazardous goods are a different ball game to clothing. Very few couriers handle them, and I presume there are added costs to the courier for handling such goods.

[propercartridges]

hi chrisash I have done a deal with a pallet company where I can put up to 15000 on so I am offering to pay the freight to your door on a buy of 6000 which works out about £4.40 per 1000 transport per 1000 if you fill the pallet with the 15000 it works about£1.80 or so per thousand that's next day and on your door you cannot get better than that can you we r getting there slowly but we r growing at a good rate get a bit bigger and I will negotiate but the above prices r good enough for me thanks george

[ColinF]

hi chrisash I have done a deal with a pallet company where I can put up to 15000 on so I am offering to pay the freight to your door on a buy of 6000 which works out about £4.40 per 1000 transport per 1000 if you fill the pallet with the 15000 it works about£1.80 or so per thousand that's next day and on your door you cannot get better than that can you we r getting there slowly but we r growing at a good rate get a bit bigger and I will negotiate but the above prices r good enough for me thanks george

What have you done about the legal side of selling cartridges directly, but not face to face? I know it was a problem for Just Cartridges when they started and I believe it took a bit of sorting out. There is a thread on here about it:

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/245488-rules-on-storage-access-to-cartridges/page-3?hl=%2Bcharles+%2Bbull&do=findComment&comment=2154796

 

Post #44 and onwards are the most relevant.

[Alycidon]

Web advertising is where its at, paper advertising is read once and is then tomorrows chip paper.

 

I am trial running a Google Ad words campaign, this links in through Google and Google maps.

 

There was a major explosion at Eley. late 60s early 70s. Stopped them making anything for some months.

 

Personally I would look to sell direct, perhaps to game shoots, clay clubs etc. Hull used to do that with a personalised shell if you ordered 10,000. Guy I used to order through used to order 30,000 at a go, he has since died. No reason why you cant do a special printed shell given a half decent volume.

 

Take a small stand at the West Mids Game fair, there are a lot of serious shots there, then next year a stand at the Game Fair maybe. Your recent comments on making anything people want might hit a cord. If I was keeping my side by sides I would be looking for 28gr of 5s with the ballistics of Impax, but they are going soon.

 

A

[mick miller]

Google Adwords is fine, but can work out to be costly in the long run. This is where good SEO wins. It's okay having a website but no use if no ****** can find you when they type in ' best cartridges for pigeons' etc.