EU eCall big brother system in new cars by 2018

[MartynGT4]

Looks like this is coming whether we like it or not: -

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30337272

 

There's lots of talk about privacy issues, like how the system could be used by authorities to track your position, EU commission says that's not going to happen because of rules written into the legislation (rules can and do change!) but as the device will be constantly handshaking with cellular base stations (like every GSM based device must), it will most definitely be traceable. The system does have some merits from a safety standpoint but this will be at a quite a cost to our privacy, especially when car manufacturers (or even cellular providers) realise how valuable the data could become, especially to insurance providers. In time this system will be subject to mission creep and once it's in our cars, there will be sod all we can do about it. These are genuine privacy concerns but I bet it wont be long before someone replies along the line of "if you don't drive too fast or do anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about"...

 

If you ask me, the simple answer is to hurry up and give us a referendum so we can vote one way or another on leaving the bloody EU! Somehow I doubt it will happen in my lifetime!

 

 

[evo]

"if you don't drive too fast or do anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about"...

 

:lol:

 

just another way of checking everything we do,,big brother totally stinks

 

atb Evo

[grrclark]

The traffic tracking system used by the likes of TomTom are based on exactly the same type of technology.

 

I was led to believe from their operations people that they use other information from the vodafone network around mobile device registration between cell sites, etc to help calculate weight of traffic in an area, etc.

 

That coupled with more specific information from TomTom's with a built in SIM card gives them a very representative sample that they can use very effectively.

 

So in many respects the information is already out there should people wish to use it nefariously.

[MartynGT4]

The traffic tracking system used by the likes of TomTom are based on exactly the same type of technology.

 

I was led to believe from their operations people that they use other information from the vodafone network around mobile device registration between cell sites, etc to help calculate weight of traffic in an area, etc.

 

That coupled with more specific information from TomTom's with a built in SIM card gives them a very representative sample that they can use very effectively.

 

So in many respects the information is already out there should people wish to use it nefariously.

 

Yes and it's more evidence that organisations will seek to find new and interesting ways to monetise our data!

Edited December 6, 2014 by MartynGT4

[grrclark]

 

indeed it is, in fact your mobile phone does an even better job of tracking your location. The difference is that we are free to chose to use those services or not, in this case that freedom is being taken away if you wish to drive a car, although it will take quite a while for it to filter into all cars on the road.

I explained myself poorly, much of the information used is based on all mobile data registered on the Voda network, no opt in required or opt out possible. It is non personalised cell registration data from all Voda network devices.

 

All the network operators are more than capable of logging this now and exploiting the data, if they are not already.

 

The point being if people wanted to track movement they can do it now anyway, doesn't need anything extra.

 

I do understand your point and I agree that it should be a voluntary choice for car owners, but I don't think it particularly shifts the goal posts.

[grrclark]

 

Yes and it's more evidence that organisations will seek to find new and interesting ways to monetise our data!

That is a really interesting topic in its own right, by using certain technologies or the Internet or social media, etc do we implicitly give up our rights to some data. Do we commoditise ourselves, even if we don't actually appreciate that we do?

 

Where do we draw the bounds of privacy?

 

I guess it is much the same as browser cookies and such like. In general I think that we are completely ignorant and blind to the digital footprints that we leave behind.

[MartynGT4]

That is a really interesting topic in its own right, by using certain technologies or the Internet or social media, etc do we implicitly give up our rights to some data. Do we commoditise ourselves, even if we don't actually appreciate that we do?

 

Where do we draw the bounds of privacy?

 

I guess it is much the same as browser cookies and such like. In general I think that we are completely ignorant and blind to the digital footprints that we leave behind.

 

It's a huge subject for sure. I've been developing global scale commercial web applications since the commercialisation of the internet began, and trust me, the scale and speed at which user data is shared and traded is beyond most people's comprehension. If there's a way to make money out of your data be that demographic, usage, positional, behavioural or otherwise, you can bet your life someone will be out there doing it. Very few people actually read services privacy statements and T&Cs and even fewer actually understand the implications of them and organisations know and actively abuse this. Sure, you'll have privacy experts exposing some of the more shady practices but often it's the lack of restriction in a policy that enables the very behaviour we'd object to, yet such gaps can be nigh on impossible for the average user to spot. The notion of true privacy is quickly becoming a thing of the past, if it hasn't already.

 

By the way TomTom have a pretty interesting track record given that they were selling aggregated traffic speed data to the Netherlands police, who used the data to position speed traps! When they were caught in the act, they apologised and said they hadn't realised the data could be used in that way. They were caught selling traffic speed data to the police and they still expect us to believe they didn't realise the data would be used for enforcement purposes?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/28/tomtom-satnav-data-police-speed-traps

Edited December 6, 2014 by MartynGT4

[Psyxologos]

My last three BMW cars (executive variants) have had this as a standard, so nothing new here. All high end cars have similar systems in place, and I welcome it. I have used a variant of that service when I found myself in an area new to me, with no street names, and my in built sat nav had no idea how to take me where I needed to go so kept driving me in circles. All I had to do is push the button and a nice young lady from 'BMW connect' was able to direct me. She said to me 'I can see your car on the map, turn left, then stay on that street for 300yards, turn left' etc etc.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Psyxologos

[MartynGT4]

My last three BMW cars (executive variants) have had this as a standard, so nothing new here. All high end cars have similar systems in place, and I welcome it. I have used a variant of that service when I found myself in an area new to me, with no street names, and my in built sat nav had no idea how to take me where I needed to go so kept driving me in circles. All I had to do is push the button and a nice young lady from 'BMW connect' was able to direct me. She said to me 'I can see your car on the map, turn left, then stay on that street for 300yards, turn left' etc etc.

 

Those services are undoubtedly useful, but you had the freedom to purchase cars with these services, my point is that this freedom is being removed.

 

I would ask you this, do you know what data of yours these services has collected? Do you know how that data has been stored? Do you know who has free access to it? Do you know if it has been traded? I could go on, but my point here is that although BMW may be acting perfectly honourably when offering and operating these services, they could equally be using it in ways you may not feel comfortable with. Of course you've accepted all this for better or worse when you signed the cheque (or the finance agreement) but did you really know what you were signing up for?

[Psyxologos]

 

Those services are undoubtedly useful, but you had the freedom to purchase cars with these services, my point is that this freedom is being removed.

 

I would ask you this, do you know what data of yours these services has collected? Do you know how that data has been stored? Do you know who has free access to it? Do you know if it has been traded? I could go on, but my point here is that although BMW may be acting perfectly honourably when offering and operating these services, they could equally be using it in ways you may not feel comfortable with. Of course you've accepted all this for better or worse when you signed the cheque (or the finance agreement) but did you really know what you were signing up for?

 

I see what you mean, but if such technology is to be used, it will be done for very specific functions and will be regulated to bits and pieces. For example BMW has very strict confidentiality clauses, explaining what they do with your data, as well as telling you what they are not allowed to do with the information that can be collected if and when I or an emergency situation activates it (just because the vehicle is equiped with the technology it does not mean that the technology is active 24/7). I looked at those closely before I parted with my money. On a slightly diferent note, I never have and never wil buy anything on finance. If I cannot afford it, then I do not need it. Only exception is my home, and even there I decided to wait untill I had over 60% of the actual value. I hate paying interest...

[MartynGT4]

 

I see what you mean, but if such technology is to be used, it will be done for very specific functions and will be regulated to bits and pieces. For example BMW has very strict confidentiality clauses, explaining what they do with your data, as well as telling you what they are not allowed to do with the information that can be collected if and when I or an emergency situation activates it (just because the vehicle is equiped with the technology it does not mean that the technology is active 24/7). I looked at those closely before I parted with my money. On a slightly diferent note, I never have and never wil buy anything on finance. If I cannot afford it, then I do not need it. Only exception is my home, and even there I decided to wait untill I had over 60% of the actual value. I hate paying interest...

 

In the case of BMW you could very well be right and it's refreshing to hear you did some homework before you handed over your cash because very few do. I'm not picking on BMW, I like their cars very much and I have no reason to suspect they've been anything but completely honourable, I was just using them as an example of how they could behave. I'm also painfully aware that a great many other organisations are not so honourable. By the way, I apologise if it sounded like I was suggesting you'd purchased your car(s) on finance, I wasn't, its just a reality that most cars are purchased using finance in one way or another these days and the organisations providing the finance also have privacy policies which may or may not be comprehensive, see where I'm going with this?

[Psyxologos]

 

In the case of BMW you could very well be right and it's refreshing to hear you did some homework before you handed over your cash because very few do. I'm not picking on BMW, I like their cars very much and I have no reason to suspect they've been anything but completely honourable, I was just using them as an example of how they could behave. I'm also painfully aware that a great many other organisations are not so honourable. By the way, I apologise if it sounded like I was suggesting you'd purchased your car(s) on finance, I wasn't, its just a reality that most cars are purchased using finance in one way or another these days and the organisations providing the finance also have privacy policies which may or may not be comprehensive, see where I'm going with this?

 

No need to apologise about anything, I just took the opportunity to voice my opinion on something I feel very strong about (buying things on credit). As for your points on BMW and other organizations, you are right. God knows what they are using our data for. But this is why it is important we keep on top of the small print, and make sure we know when we allow others to have a bit too much information for our liking. It is the same with smartphone technology, I suspect. Nowadays there is a very imprtant debate concerning the gps, wifi and other technologies used by applications on our phones. Applications that have way more power than I would be happy allowing them to, something that makes me very careful as to which ones make it to my phone...

Edited December 6, 2014 by Psyxologos

[mick miller]

eCall life saving for rural areas, don't make me laugh. Six miles outside of the nearest town and I may as well be on the moon, only one carrier out of the handful works and even that reception is patchy at best.

[Scully]

Can't anyone with a mobile phone already be tracked? If this is the case and bearing in mind of course we buy mobile phones voluntarily, is it therefore merely only the difference between one of voluntary and compulsory acts?

[KFC]

eCall life saving for rural areas, don't make me laugh. Six miles outside of the nearest town and I may as well be on the moon, only one carrier out of the handful works and even that reception is patchy at best.

Right, they can land a spacecraft on a comet 350 million miles away but I can't get a mobile signal in the middle of Ramsey.

 

I wonder, if the system is automatic, will it lead to a rise in false alarms for the emergency services?

On the same lines, could it be reverse activated to find stolen cars?

[Imperfection]

The company i work for is putting built in sav navs and trackers into all the new vehicles being rolled out,but they can also judge your driving via G force. So they can see when you're braking reallyyyyyyyyyy hard into roundabouts etc.

 

The vehicles though are restricted to 62mph...

 

I wont get one for another 3 years as my Transit is only 2 years old fortunately.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Imperfection

[grrclark]

Martyn, I think I recall reading the stories about TomTom selling their data and their defence of not knowing how the data could be used is completely specious.

 

I remember hearing a statistic that suggested if people were to try and read the T&C's of every service that they subscribe to for online content providers or services that it would take something like a month per year!

 

I think that one of the challenges that most people have is that they cannot get their head around the scale of capability to record and manipulate data, when you think about google creating the Street View environment they recorded so much information at that point in time it is truly staggering.

 

An example would be as they drove around taking the photo's if they also recorded the cell strength of the various cellular networks they could sell that to network providers or other interested parties and give very exact details of where coverage does or does not work, likewise with any other radio services.

 

Of course they were caught for also recording the SSID information from people's home wifi as they drove around taking the pictures.

 

From things like Nectar cards, data from mobile phones, use of public wifi spots, use of cash machines, using debit/credit cards, number plate recognition for traffic management, car parks that record number plate data, social media location tagging, etc the ability to capture data and take demographic information from that, even if it is non personalised so not in breach of any data protection or privacy rules is absolutely vast.

 

To an extent individually identifiable data is less valuable, it is volume data of trends and group behaviour that is very powerful. It is an area of study that fascinates me.

Edited December 6, 2014 by grrclark

[overandunder2012]

time for a old classic and a map

[Lord Geordie]

You can't win with some people! They don't want a gadget spying on them, and knowing their every move! Yet are quite happy to post relentlessly on Facebook, They have been to the Gym, Pub, Shops, pick up the kids, even what they had for dinner! Your on here! OPEN forum, where anyone can see what your writing. You no doubt answer some questions when making online purchases! And you worry about a box, that in all fairness only lets them know where you are and what speed your doing? It's not like it knows your picking your nose or sctatching your nads on the M6 is it? :lol:

[Twistedsanity]

Nothing to see here, move along http://www.jammer4uk.com/mini-gps-satellite-blocker-p-44.html

[MartynGT4]

You can't win with some people! They don't want a gadget spying on them, and knowing their every move! Yet are quite happy to post relentlessly on Facebook, They have been to the Gym, Pub, Shops, pick up the kids, even what they had for dinner! Your on here! OPEN forum, where anyone can see what your writing. You no doubt answer some questions when making online purchases! And you worry about a box, that in all fairness only lets them know where you are and what speed your doing? It's not like it knows your picking your nose or sctatching your nads on the M6 is it?

 

Were you aware that even our own government have resisted this change in part because of privacy concerns?

 

Look, if I post on Facebook it's because I make a conscious choice to do so with full knowledge of how that data is likely to be used, the same goes for my posts to this forum. I am free to decide not to share this information if I wish, in time I will not have the freedom to share or not to share my motoring related data because eventually every car on the road will be fitted with an eCall system. Is it really so difficult to understand the difference?

[spanj]

Looks like this is coming whether we like it or not: -

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30337272

 

There's lots of talk about privacy issues, like how the system could be used by authorities to track your position, EU commission says that's not going to happen because of rules written into the legislation (rules can and do change!) but as the device will be constantly handshaking with cellular base stations (like every GSM based device must), it will most definitely be traceable. The system does have some merits from a safety standpoint but this will be at a quite a cost to our privacy, especially when car manufacturers (or even cellular providers) realise how valuable the data could become, especially to insurance providers. In time this system will be subject to mission creep and once it's in our cars, there will be sod all we can do about it. These are genuine privacy concerns but I bet it wont be long before someone replies along the line of "if you don't drive too fast or do anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about"...

 

If you ask me, the simple answer is to hurry up and give us a referendum so we can vote one way or another on leaving the bloody EU! Somehow I doubt it will happen in my lifetime!

 

We can and should get out of the eu but that won't stop cars being made there and having this fitted

[MartynGT4]

We can and should get out of the eu but that won't stop cars being made there and having this fitted

 

Possibly unless car manufacturers realised they could save a few quid by not fitting it to cars destined for the UK market.

Edited December 6, 2014 by MartynGT4

[spanj]

I'd guess the economies of scale would mean it'd cost more to not fit it ! (Bit like rhd !)

Edited December 6, 2014 by spanj

[keg]

The traffic tracking system used by the likes of TomTom are based on exactly the same type of technology.

 

I was led to believe from their operations people that they use other information from the vodafone network around mobile device registration between cell sites, etc to help calculate weight of traffic in an area, etc.

 

That coupled with more specific information from TomTom's with a built in SIM card gives them a very representative sample that they can use very effectively.

 

So in many respects the information is already out there should people wish to use it nefariously.

Agreed, your mobile alone gives a lot of data already. Accuracy is more related to size of cells i believe, smaller cells in town, bigger cells in the countryside. Accuracy may suffer in rural areas but don't quote me on that.