Business men, Industry, Farmers, what's your view about Europe

[Gordon R]

+1 :lol:

[grrclark]

so do you think that a united Europe would resemble the USA and Canada as a large landmass and natural resource coupled with workforce

 

I think that Europe is too riddled with guilt and self doubt to really come together the way it would need to, the UK can't take the lead role as it would be seen as modern day imperialism, Germany can't take the lead as they have a pretty poor track record in the last 100 years of trying to dominate Europe, France and Italy are far too self interested and the Spanish have always had an identity crisis.

 

So instead we have a ridiculous collective approach that seeks consensus in everything and I can't see how that is possible when culturally, politically and economically we are so diverse with so many vested interests.

 

Europe is dominated by the UK and Germany, politically and economically, both want the same thing and both have the capability to lead a globally competitive superstate, but every other country in the EU wouldn't trust us to have an honest and impartial agenda as in some way shape or form they have all been at war with one or other of us and there is an ingrained and embedded cultural mistrust.

Edited December 7, 2014 by grrclark

[keg]

Your previous post was succinct and to the point.

 

The original EEC was driven by a wish to make in Germany and France so close politically and economically that another conflict would not be possibe.

[digger]

Is this the official gang up on FM topic. usual suspect slinging insults, usually means the argument has been lost. Shame that good replies like Grclacks are lost in the bickering.

[Fisherman Mike]

+1 :lol:

+2 :lol:

 

Xmas present on its way to you Gord

[Fisherman Mike]

Is this the official gang up on FM topic. usual suspect slinging insults, usually means the argument has been lost. Shame that good replies like Grclacks are lost in the bickering.

Cheers Digger...

 

Must admit I felt a bit like Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men...

 

However, tomorrow the sun will come up, light will prevail over dark and good always triumphs over evil.

[digger]

I treat this site like a lodge meeting - no politics !

[spanj]

so do you think that a united Europe would resemble the USA and Canada as a large landmass and natural resource coupled with workforce great post grrclark

Possibly but the fact that we are not physically part of such a landmass, actually sets us apart

[islandgun]

Possibly but the fact that we are not physically part of such a landmass, actually sets us apart

after reading grrclarks last post which made a lot of sense im pretty sure a united europe is flawed and will be voting out at the GE unless someone can convince otherwise !

[grrclark]

after reading grrclarks last post which made a lot of sense im pretty sure a united europe is flawed and will be voting out at the GE unless someone can convince otherwise !

 

It's why I would instinctively vote to leave as well, but still on the fence so far as the medium term economic argument is concerned. I reckon in the short term it would be be painful as we go through transition and in the longer term there are bigger factors at play globally so it wont play out to any pre set plan anyway.

 

Without a doubt the really exciting growth areas for British exporters are in the emerging economies of the far east and we woefully under represent ourselves in those markets, likewise in both North and sub Saharan Africa.

 

We need to sell brand Britain much more effectively, we got wealthy trading other countries commodities and right now we are far too involved in talking ourselves down, we tell everyone our country is going to the dogs at every opportunity, we just have to look at the comments on so many threads on this website and those comments often come from those with the loudest nationalist voice. What chance do we stand if we can't believe in ourselves.

 

The Olympics was a phenomenal example of how brand Britain can sell globally if we get our act together. That is probably a topic for another day.

[four-wheel-drive]

 

I think that Europe is too riddled with guilt and self doubt to really come together the way it would need to, the UK can't take the lead role as it would be seen as modern day imperialism, Germany can't take the lead as they have a pretty poor track record in the last 100 years of trying to dominate Europe, France and Italy are far too self interested and the Spanish have always had an identity crisis.

 

So instead we have a ridiculous collective approach that seeks consensus in everything and I can't see how that is possible when culturally, politically and economically we are so diverse with so many vested interests.

 

Europe is dominated by the UK and Germany, politically and economically, both want the same thing and both have the capability to lead a globally competitive superstate, but every other country in the EU wouldn't trust us to have an honest and impartial agenda as in some way shape or form they have all been at war with one or other of us and there is an ingrained and embedded cultural mistrust.

If I was one of them I would not trust ether the Germans or the UK we was responsible for keeping the facist in power in Greese and several other countries prefering them to the communists.

[Gordon R]

Fisherman Mike - you are talented painter, but your intelligence stops there. Not very bright, logical or funny.

[Psyxologos]

I've yet to find anyone who can give an answer to one simple question.

 

Why is it necessary to be in a political union with a country to be able to trade with it?

 

Anyone?

 

It is not necessary. It is the wise thing to do, if the UK is to have any influence on the laws/decisions/rules this common market operates within...

[Psyxologos]

everyone has forgotten what we voted for in 1974 a Europe with free trade between member states a common market after this vote was taken the country was slowly assett stripped.i lived and worked in coventry i watched as Alfred Herberts, Wickman Webster & Bennett Standard Morris motor panels ti matrix Massey Ferguson Rootes (peugeot) Daimler and other engineering companies have all followed suit along with gec these were great companies and employed a lot of people these sites have been replaced with houses. These companies have been replaced with foriegn owned brands that can move out at anytime jlr is moving to india and china will this be at britains expense

 

this is not true. The following is from my answer to another thread. Please feel free to check it out.

 

The European Union, even in its infancy was designed with political union as its ultimate goal. It is in its founding declarations, treaties, agreements, agendas etc (most notably the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (1958), the Treaty on European Union (1992) aka Maastricht Treaty, and the agenda known as Europe 1992). Of course after this we have the treaty Lisbon which reaffirmed the commitment of the European nations to go ahead with the original plans. Most people are confusing the European Union with legal entities and treaties such as the European Communities, European Free Trade Association, the European Economic Community and the European Economic Area; entities that are either part of the European Union's basic pillars (in the case of the European Economic Community which later was renamed European Economic Area and part of it is still alive in the case of Norway, Switzerland etc), or are part of expired treaties and agreements (such as the European Coal and Steel Community [ECSC], and the European Atomic Energy Community [EAEC or Euratom]).

 

[poontang]

 

It is not necessary. It is the wise thing to do, if the UK is to have any influence on the laws/decisions/rules this common market operates within...

 

You're totally missing the point.

 

It's not necessary for ANY European country to have political union just to be able to trade. The whole system as it stands is not necessary. Any rules/decisions regarding trade (and trade only) would obviously need to be agreed between participating countries, but that's where it should end...for ALL countries.

[poontang]

 

this is not true. The following is from my answer to another thread. Please feel free to check it out.

 

What the EU is and what the British people were told in 1975 are two totally different things. The population was misled by its own government (no change there then).

 

Don't forget there was no internet in those days, all information was gained through main stream media, and we all know how easy that is to manipulate. Of course the politicians knew what was coming, they just kept it hidden from the population.

[Blunderbuss]

Of course the politicians knew what was coming, they just kept it hidden from the population.

I think you are crediting politicians with a visionary power of foresight they simply don't have. Nor does anyone else. Governments may hope or wish for certain outcomes when they implement major policy changes but it seldom works out exactly as they planned. Cock up or conspiracy? The former - every single time.

 

The truth is our political leaders wield far less real power and are much more impotent than most people realise. This is why I can't buy the idea that all will be sunshine and roses if we simply vote for the new kids on the block. I think some people are being a bit unrealistic about what ANY political party has the power to change.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Blunderbuss

[kdubya]

I think you are crediting politicians with a visionary power of foresight they simply don't have. Nor does anyone else. Governments may hope or wish for certain outcomes when they implement major policy changes but it seldom works out exactly as they planned. Cock up or conspiracy? The former - every single time.

 

The truth is our political leaders wield far less real power and are much more impotent than most people reaslise. This is why I can't buy the idea that all will be sunshine and roses if we simply vote for the new kids on the block. I think some people are being a bit unrealistic about what ANY political party has the power to change.

you are kidding aren't you heath and the rest knew the vision for Europe would not be acceptable to the man in the street so they simply did not tell them nothing much changed there then.

 

here is something for you to digest

 

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/howthebritishmedia.htm

[kdubya]

Is this the official gang up on FM topic. usual suspect slinging insults, usually means the argument has been lost. Shame that good replies like Grclacks are lost in the bickering.

I take it the response on post 55 is not an insult to you then? and that the blatant categorisation as a racist of those who want change is also acceptable, if so you are a hypocrite 1st 2nd and 3rd class, there is only one slinger and starter of insults in these threads and his initials are FM troll superbe so put your spade down and stop digging before you get too deep.

 

 

KW

Edited December 8, 2014 by kdubya

[islandgun]

I think you are crediting politicians with a visionary power of foresight they simply don't have. Nor does anyone else. Governments may hope or wish for certain outcomes when they implement major policy changes but it seldom works out exactly as they planned. Cock up or conspiracy? The former - every single time.

 

The truth is our political leaders wield far less real power and are much more impotent than most people realise. This is why I can't buy the idea that all will be sunshine and roses if we simply vote for the new kids on the block. I think some people are being a bit unrealistic about what ANY political party has the power to change.

Its not politicians that do the manipulation in my mind. its big business, the politician is only the face on TV, Im sure politicians are given the agendas, dressed, and PR'd about how look convincing (which all fail at) the OP was about the views of these business men who in effect run the country !

[digger]

I must have missed the thread where he threw the first insult but hey ho. its an Internet forum so I won't be taking it too seriously and slinging names at people I have and never will meet.ta

[Psyxologos]

What the EU is and what the British people were told in 1975 are two totally different things. The population was misled by its own government (no change there then).

 

Don't forget there was no internet in those days, all information was gained through main stream media, and we all know how easy that is to manipulate. Of course the politicians knew what was coming, they just kept it hidden from the population.

 

I do not dissagree with that. Well, what is the answer to that and many other problems that were created because of insencere politicians? I would favour a system where all politicians and political parties are held to account for what they say and do, the promises they break and the facts they decide to hide. The problem is that most modern voters are apathetic, their motives are strictly individualistic and are interested only on what will give results now and here. Nobody likes to wait. Look at this country's energy policy. Despite having the know how, the scientific personel and the resources to develop long term, clean energy, it continues to plan and rely on dirty, dangerous and expensive (despite on what they tell us) energy solutions.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Psyxologos

[kdubya]

 

I do not dissagree with that. Well, what is the answer to that and many other problems that were created because of insencere politicians? I would favour a system where all politicians and political parties are held to account for what they say and do, the promises they break and the facts they decide to hide. The problem is that most modern voters are apathetic, their motives are strictly individualistic and are interested only on what will give results now and here. Nobody likes to wait. Look at this country's energy policy. Despite having the know how, the scientific personel and the resources to develop long term, clean energy, it continues to plan and rely on dirty, dangerous and expensive (despite on what they tell us) energy solutions.

You where doing well and I was in full agreement till you got to dirty dangerous and expensive, we do produce electricity cleanly even with coal, we could get cheaper gas, but that would mean we would have to store it and at the moment we dont and cant,and we could build more very proven safe nuke's but we wont invest long term( we are now relying on the Chinese to bail us out in the next build if it happens)so we keep building inefficient hugely expensive and subsidised wind turbine's,which do sod all but blight the coast or countryside, but yes you are right about no energy policy, we have not had one since 1990 when we broke up a very good company called the CEGB

 

Ooh and just to prove I am nerdy when it comes to our power provision I check this daily, it gives an up to the minute readout of whats doing what, and at times shows just how close we are sailing to the wind regards supply and demand.

 

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

KW

Edited December 9, 2014 by kdubya

[Psyxologos]

I have to disagree with regards to wind. I think it can work, and should work efficiently and cheap. There are huge interests at stake here, and making sure we spend on research and development of wind power is against these. The same goes with wave power. Solar is rather a lost bet in this country, for obvious reasons. It does work in south Europe and the US though.

 

I do not think nuclear and fosil fuels are doing anyone any favours (apart from multinational energy giants who have already invested in the infrastructure and thus want to make as much money out of their investment as possible), especially the environment and future generations. As I said these are the easy options, and offer immediate solutions (albeit short term) and rather disproportionate profits to large coorporations. Either we like it or not (for the record, I like it) renewables are the only option we have, and we will soon be turning to them. Not because politicians all of a sudden will grow a moral ethos, but because fosil fuels will be uneconomical (due to costs of finding them, extracting them, transporting and storing them). Fraking is the flavour of the month lately, but thankfully enough people will opose it fiercely to make politicians feel it is doing them more harm than good.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Psyxologos

[overandunder2012]

farmers like their subsidy's and cheap labor cant imaging many voting ukip,

Edited December 9, 2014 by overandunder2012